J. R. Radcliff--The rest of the story

[Multidigits]

:d :d :d :d

[buckfever]

Multi - It's "misled". And I was there and I can tell you that you're factually wrong about a number of things. Before you start citing to your "reliable sources", why don't you just have them come on here so we can hear it from the horses' mouths. Suppose for an instance that only 20 people would've normally been in attendance at this meeting. You're still left with 18 votes against and 2 for. That is still 90% opposition, which I think we can all agree is overwhelming opposition.

[Multidigits]

All we ask for is that the truth be told. You side is proving it's rare when that happens from your side. This is just one more nail in the coffin. Thanks.

[gwhilikerz]

Multi - It's "misled". And I was there and I can tell you that you're factually wrong about a number of things. Before you start citing to your "reliable sources", why don't you just have them come on here so we can hear it from the horses' mouths. Suppose for an instance that only 20 people would've normally been in attendance at this meeting. You're still left with 18 votes against and 2 for. That is still 90% opposition, which I think we can all agree is overwhelming opposition.
Spelling is not multi's longsuite (is that spelled right?) and apparently truth is not your's. I am getting tired of people saying one thing, then when that is refuted they say "yeah but what if?.... No we didn't lie we just didn't tell the truth....depends on what your definition of the word "is" is.
Both sides will get the chance to put their facts out straight up, and woe to the side that tries to tilt the facts

[schuyler olt]

I've been a member of Derby City since a year after it was formed, I've been a board member for all of that time, served as vice-president, and as banquet chairman seven times, six of which were Golden Gobbler. I must have missed the meeting where we elected the "Derby City spokesman" Multi spoke with, and I will guarantee you that EVERY person on the Derby City board opposed the changes to the turkey season for xbows, and the method by which this change was made.

I'm amazed. I am opposing the turkey season expansion because I'm concerned about overharvest. I am opposed to the method applied in this instance because I think it inappropriately removes all of us from the decision making process of OUR department and OUR resources.

Now I am labelled first "anti-crossbow" and am told to leave a PUBLIC forum.

To compound it, the rhetoric now labels me "anti-hunter."

On June 6, 2002 I was named a Wildlife Steward by the KDFWR.

Someone owes me an apology for defaming me.

But don't worry--when the process gores your ox on the next one, I will come to your defense because I will never abandon this principle--above all else, all sportsmen must first and foremost have a full and fair opportunity to participate in the affairs of their KDFWR.

[Multidigits]

I've been a member of Derby City since a year after it was formed, I've been a board member for all of that time, served as vice-president, and as banquet chairman seven times, six of which were Golden Gobbler. I must have missed the meeting where we elected the "Derby City spokesman" Multi spoke with, and I will guarantee you that EVERY person on the Derby City board opposed the changes to the turkey season for xbows, and the method by which this change was made.

I'm amazed. I am opposing the turkey season expansion because I'm concerned about overharvest. I am opposed to the method applied in this instance because I think it inappropriately removes all of us from the decision making process of OUR department and OUR resources.

Now I am labelled first "anti-crossbow" and am told to leave a PUBLIC forum.

To compound it, the rhetoric now labels me "anti-hunter."

On June 6, 2002 I was named a Wildlife Steward by the KDFWR.

Someone owes me an apology for defaming me.

But don't worry--when the process gores your ox on the next one, I will come to your defense because I will never abandon this principle--above all else, all sportsmen must first and foremost have a full and fair opportunity to participate in the affairs of their KDFWR.

The spokesman I talked with is a past president of the Derby City chapter, so I guess you could say he's a spokesman for the club, as he always mentions that he's a past president. He may have been against the process or not having Joe Broughtons wishes upheld, but he is not against the crossbow change. And said he plans to get one when this is finalized.

I don't know how you can argue against the crossbow and not be anti-crossbow, but your smarter than me, so I'll let you explain it???? I didn't ask you to leave any forum, public or private.

As for the next time, I'll be there with you. Same as on the others. This process was no different than any of the other million or so issues they have decided in the last few years. Only this time you didn't agree with the outcome. For a change, I do. And you know that not one person was ever kept from participating in any of the process. Not one.

[schuyler olt]

I have never said I was against the crossbow. Crossbows have been legal turkey hunting weapons in Kentucky for decades. Show me when I have ever tried to have that changed. SHOW ME, dammit! THAT'S being anti-xbow!

Having an opinion that expanding the turkey season as much as was proposed is not a good idea is not being anti-xbow--it's being conservative in my approach to the resource. And if YOU have a problem with THAT, then you are anti-resource if we're going to use your logic.

If you are standing up for the procedure applied here, then you are saying that it is perfectly acceptable for the KDFWR to utilize the barest possible legal minimum in terms of notice and right to be heard, REGARDLESS OF THE IMPORTANCE OF THE ISSUE.

Please tell me you don't honestly believe that.

[schuyler olt]

I'm a past state chapter president of the NWTF. That gives you the right to attribute what I say here to be the CURRENT position of the State Chapter and refer to me as its "spokesman"?

That's certainly a new definition of agency heretofore unknown to me in nearly a quarter century of practising law in Kentucky. Applying that very same logic, Bill Clinton would qualify to be a "spokesman" for George W.

[Multidigits]

I have never said I was against the crossbow. Crossbows have been legal turkey hunting weapons in Kentucky for decades. Show me when I have ever tried to have that changed. SHOW ME, dammit! THAT'S being anti-xbow!

Having an opinion that expanding the turkey season as much as was proposed is not a good idea is not being anti-xbow--it's being conservative in my approach to the resource. And if YOU have a problem with THAT, then you are anti-resource if we're going to use your logic.

If you are standing up for the procedure applied here, then you are saying that it is perfectly acceptable for the KDFWR to utilize the barest possible legal minimum in terms of notice and right to be heard, REGARDLESS OF THE IMPORTANCE OF THE ISSUE.

Please tell me you don't honestly believe that.

The issue is expanding the crossbow into eraly archery, not changing something that's we already have. Over the years, we've expanded many seasons when the resource will allow for it. And we've changed many regs to make things simpler and more user friendly i.e. No restriction on rifle calibers, etc. If you argue that the crossbow is some sort of mystical weapon that going to wreak havoc on the game populations then your anti-crossbow based on a myth. The simple facts are that a crossbow is basicly the same as a conventional bow in use today, as far as kill statistics and any other catagory you want to throw out there. It's time that we consider it as archery and get over the prejudices that have followed this weapon choice for eons.

Calling me anti-resource doesn't even hurt, because I have the biologists on my side this time. When we made past season changes and the same arguments came up, it was always "defer to the biologists". The biologists say your not correct that it will harm the resource. I agree with them!

I'll defend the process procedure too. It's the same as we always used and it's a lot better than going to the legislature and getting who knows what for regs. We asked for the Agendas to be posted. It took awhile before it became standard procedure, but it happened this time. For both meetings. Anyone wanting to take part in the process could have easily done so--on time, not after the fact.

[schuyler olt]

Your "very reliable source" is equally full of crap in saying that SCI and KHFH were not represented. Mike Ohlman is the president of KHFH, and Kent Cooper, Mike Ohlman and I are founding and current board members. All three of us were there. Mike is on the board of SCI.

Moreover, saying that only 20 of the people in that room had ever been to a 3rd district meeting is equally horsebleep. I've been going to those meetings for years. I would say that a more accurate statement was that 80% had once been active in the LKS, had become disgruntled years ago, but were motivated to return because of this issue. And signing up new members to the League is a bad thing??????????????

You need to face the fact that many people who have worked very hard for many years are extremely upset by the way the Commission acted in this case. One is even a former 3rd District Commissioner. I want you to know that I am absolutely infuriated by your calling me an anti-hunter. You could not have said anything that would be more insulting. I'll not return the unkindness.

[MD501]

Mr.OLT have you applied for the position of kdfwr commissioner yet? if so i wouldn't lower myself to internet forum debate, you never know who reads this stuff and how it will be used later

[schuyler olt]

And when I talk about process, I'm talking strictly about the Commission. Don't you dare try to spin my words again.

Your unwillingness to seek compromise, your name calling, your flagrant misreporting of what actually occurred is contributing mightily to people going to the Governor, the Legislature and anyone else who will listen. You need to realize that.

[Multidigits]

Your "very reliable source" is equally full of crap in saying that SCI and KHFH were not represented. Mike Ohlman is the president of KHFH, and Kent Cooper, Mike Ohlman and I are founding and current board members. All three of us were there. Mike is on the board of SCI.

Moreover, saying that only 20 of the people in that room had ever been to a 3rd district meeting is equally horsebleep. I've been going to those meetings for years. I would say that a more accurate statement was that 80% had once been active in the LKS, had become disgruntled years ago, but were motivated to return because of this issue. And signing up new members to the League is a bad thing??????????????

You need to face the fact that many people who have worked very hard for many years are extremely upset by the way the Commission acted in this case. One is even a former 3rd District Commissioner. I want you to know that I am absolutely infuriated by your calling me an anti-hunter. You could not have said anything that would be more insulting. I'll not return the unkindness.

I'll say my source is very, very reliable. I trust in the information. Most of it can be verified by the League office too.

So, are you saying that the HFH and the Safari Club ARE in FACT against the crossbow issue and voted so???? That directly contradicts another board members information.

The info I have from Ronnie is that several of the clubs mentioned are not LKS clubs. I"ll check it out and retract if it's not true. I'll get a list from Phill and see.

Sorry about the anti-hunter comment. It was a blanket statment not specificly intended toward you or your stance. But you have to realize that crossbow users are also hunters and that's who your working against.

[schuyler olt]

MD501,

My application goes in Monday. Everything I have said on here I've already said directly to Allen Gailor, and I said it to him at this meeting.

If standing up for what I believe is an injustice to the people's right to be heard costs me a legitimate shot for the job, so be it. I believe in being correct, not politically correct.

[MD501]

if you were to be appointed to this position wouldnt you also have to give more than equal weight to the wishes of the sportsmen/women of ky? even if they were against what you believe to be correct. there are two sides to every debate/issue and just because you or i believe in something doesnt make it right or wrong, only our belief

[schuyler olt]

I am not saying what the stances of KHFH and SCI are. You already did that when you posted the list of ATTENDEES in the Xbow forum and attributed them as being anti xbow and then called for their boycott. That's another factual, damaging error you made.

As to your being able to verify this from the LKS office, I talked to Kent Cooper about this very same thing yesterday. You know as well as I do that the LKS office's official list of clubs is compiled shortly before the LKS convention in June. It's primary purpose is to qualify delegates. So the only list that exists is almost a year old, as I understand it. Hence, all the new clubs that signed up, and certainly those that signed up and paid their dues that night before they voted, would not be on that list.

Show me in the LKS bylaws, or the 3rd Disrtict bylaws, where it prohibits a club from signing up, paying its dues and NOT being able to vote.

[Multidigits]

Just going by what the LKS president said. If they are LKS clubs on the night of the meeting, the League office should know about it. I'll check and let you know. I'm told that some of the clubs joined the Federation, but not the LKS? I don't know but will check. Seems this might be an issue?

As for SCI and HFH, I'm told the first letter mentioned them by mistake. weather it was an honest mistake or an attempt to mislead some, who knows. That's been corrected, and isn't an issue any longer. If they have no opinion, they shouldn't have been listed on the letter of oppisition.

To your early comments, show us what part of the process was different this time to cause you to get upset with the process??? What was different this time?

As for the other crap, I've told you I would be willing to compromise on bag limit, but not season length. We want good weather days the same as you did when you took the Oct. fall gun season.

I'll say that nothing I've posted on this has been flagrant misreported. And far less than what's been told by the oppisition side.

As for getting the Legislature involved, it's a dangerous move and one not to be taken lightly. You can bet if this is allowed to be overturned, that others such as PETA and HEARTWOOD will be banging at the door for the next issue that really matters. I'd hate to get that started. So, I'll stick with the standard procedure and play it out. No end runs for us.

[schuyler olt]

MD,

I'm not really sure what your qustion is, but let me try to answer it this way.

The Commissioner, of course, is the administrator of the KDFWR charged with day-to-day operations. Policy decisions, such as do we allow an expanded crossbow season, are made by the 9 district commissioners. What they decide then falls on the Commissioner to implement.

Let's take a real life situation. If this season stands exactly as it is right now, and I am appointed Commissioner, that regulation will be implemented as written and I will bust my butt to see that every hunter in Kentucky's right to the highest possible quality of hunt is met, and met in spades.

As Chief Admin Officer in Jefferson County, I was responsible to frequently implement Fiscal Court decisions to which I philosophically disagreed. I served under a Republican County Judge and there were three Democrat Commissioners. But if the vote was three to one, the County Judge signed the ordinance and off we went.

Another example. I'm not in favor of abortion, and neither was my County Judge, Rebecca Jackson. But abortion is legal, so we were responsible to see that they were provided in a healthy and safe manner for the woman. And we did that. Didn't enjoy it, but that was our constitutional obligation.

Does this answer your question? If not, I'll try it again. It's certainly a valid point to raise.

[Multidigits]

I support Sky for Commissioner. He'll do a wonderful job. I even bet he would support a crossbow season and his biologists opinions that it would harm the resource to add this season in. It would be hard to head a group of employees and trust their work and not follow what they recommend doing, but others have done it and failed before. anyway, no matter what happens on crossbow, we need a good commissioner and Sky would fit the bill. :D

[MD501]

I think that answers it for me. however until just recently the commission seems to have just went along with what ctb wanted, if this were still the case i would think that your personal opinions if you were commissioner would have held sway over some commission members. with that said the change into the commerce cabinet and the new blood on the commission who seem to act with more independence than in the past. have lead me to believe that they will do what is right for the sportsmen/women of ky for the long term

[Multidigits]

I think that answers it for me. however until just recently the commission seems to have just went along with what ctb wanted, if this were still the case i would think that your personal opinions if you were commissioner would have held sway over some commission members. with that said the change into the commerce cabinet and the new blood on the commission who seem to act with more independence than in the past. have lead me to believe that they will do what is right for the sportsmen/women of ky for the long term

Sure doesn't hurt to be optimistic. The new man will be hired by the board in place. I'm sure there's some politics involved along the way, so who knows if it will be the best man for the job or not?

As for the crossbow decision and how this board voted, you had two new members appointed by the present administration and they split--one for, one against. We're those decisions influenced by CTB or their constituients or other factors?

[MD501]

i will go with constituents as a majority with other factors as a minor role in their decisions (but that is only my guess) i dont think ctb holds much sway over the 2 new members (only my opinion)

[schuyler olt]

Multi, here's what burned me up about this. In the past--take the October season--important decisions, particularly social decisions, were never raised and decided in a single Committee meeting/Commission meeting cycle. The primary reason for that was to allow time for word to disseminate through the Districts, allow the district commissioners to see where their federations stood, and if people disagreed, give folks time to work out a compromise.

In this case, this came up from somewhere inside the department, so its not like it was floating around through the clubs and federations for a while, and then somebody took it to their commissioner, who would typically do the "hey, what do you think about this.." thing in the committee. In my experience, that usually results in staff being told to go work it up and bring it back to the next committee meeting 90 days hence. So there's a bunch of time to get the word around, let people present their opinions, suggestions, etc.

Here, Jon Gassett brings it up in the February committee meeting. They committee votes to send it to the full Commission at the March meeting, 30 days hence.

Now this is absolutely the very shortest possible time allowed for comment by law. I'm not saying this is a bad procedure for the run-of-the-mill stuff. I am saying that where everyone at the committee meeting perfectly understands that this is primarily a "social" issue, why do you enact it under a time frame that doesn't give the federations a realistic chance to consider it? Which doesn't even give the State NWTF a time to meet? That comes during the NWTF's banquet season when we're focusing to raise the hundreds of thousands we've donated to the Department.

And I think its key that this was characterized by the department as a social issue--meaning one that affects us. We pay the bills.

What scares me is allowing this as a precedent. Can you imagine if ten years from now they did this with respect to spending the surplus? Let's say they were thinking about spending $5 million of it on habitat improvement, and not a dime of it was going to go in your area? You see what I'm driving at?

In my government experience, we believed that if in doubt, err on the side of allowing more public comment, not less. That meant some pretty late and pretty contentious meeting from time to time. But in the end, it was the right way to go. The citizen should never feel that something is being crammed down on them by government without the right to be heard. That is not good, and it is not good for public confidence in the agency.

Tom, sorry if I got harsh. I consider you a friend, but that anti-hunter comment got a rise out of my German temper.

[grouseguy]

This is truly now becoming completely ridiculous. Seasoned wildlife/sportsmen's activists have lost all perspective, and a great deal of their credibility, over an inanimate object and we've fallen into the very trap that was set for us.

I spent 3 very frustrating hours last night attempting to keep a club meeting in my district focused on the issues, rather than degrade into a full scale sportsmen vs. sportsmen pissing match. I met some new players last night...Jimmy Meadows, State President of the UBK, and Lou Ortega, President of the KY Alternative Livestock Association. Mr. Meadows and I had a very good conversation for probably an hour prior to the meeting, and I thought we had an understanding, then at the meeting he trotted out the most BS laden piece of video tape that I've seen in awhile, produced by a national bowhunting group, that served absolutely NO purpose other than to pit one group of sportsmen against another. Personally, I considered it shameful. Also, after all of the rhetoric that I've heard demonizing Mr. Ortega, I was surprised to find him one of the more reasonable and level headed gentlemen present.

The more I learn about KALA and the individuals involved, the more I'm CONVINCED that they are the victims of a KDFWR smear campaign, and likely have more to do with this crossbow issue, indirectly, than I would have thought. IMHO, it will likely come out that the flow of misinformation coming out of the KDFWR regarding KALA had a direct impact on TB's sudden "retirement", and this xbow issue has been floated out from within the KDFWR administration as a smokescreen to deflect attention from the corruption that is finally seeing the light of day, IF WE AS SPORTSMEN WOULD ONLY GET OUR COLLECTIVE HEADS OUT OF OUR ASSES AND SEE WHAT HAS BEEN OCCURRING, instead of pissing and moaning over something as TRIVIAL as a xbow, while we give a free pass to the ones that truly have CAUSED the problems.

Multi, you need to quit being such an ass just because the opportunity is there. You are winning and you're likely correct in your beleifs, but you know damn good and well that what Schuyler is saying is true. Sure this issue was handled like many others in the past few years...ISN'T THAT EXACTLY WHAT WE'VE BEEN FIGHTING AGAINST...backroom deals and political maneuvering. Also, on a side personal note, if you had paid attention with an open mind at the January LKS board meeting to the information provided regarding KALA and the misinformation that TB presented, along with looking between the lines, you would now be much further along on the real issues that are causing this firestorm now.

And Schuyler, you are being disingenuous with your claims of improper proceedure and harm to the resource, when you USED the same system and claimed no damage to the resource when you ramrodded through the changes to the fall shotgun turkey season a couple of years ago.

IMHO, on this issue you are BOTH right and you are BOTH wrong.

Let's keep our eye on the ball gentlemen...Tom Bennett, the KDFWR administration, and the Commission have corrupted our department, and its time to take it back and regain some credibility with the sportsmen.

Schuyler, I have stated this in public many times, including last night, and now I'm stating it here...I fully support you being the next Commissioner of the KDFWR because I think you are just as capable of a politician as Tom Bennett, you are likely a better administrator, and I believe you are head and shoulders above him in the integrity department, plus you already have a firm handle on the pertinent issues facing the sportsmen and resources of Kentucky, and most importantly, I believe you are seeking this office for the right reasons...a genuine concern and passion for the sportsmen and resources of Kentucky. I'm also quite sure its not for monetary gain as you are likely taking a pay cut from being an attorney in Louisville compared to this position's salary. Good Luck!!!

IMHO, this entire xbow issue is irrelevant, and has been used quite effectively to split the sportsmen in order to deflect heat from Tom Bennett and the Commission. Let's all take the high road on this, and unite the sportsmen, against the true cause of the problems and work to hire a new commissioner that will provide a vision for the KDFWR to move forward and succeed, on behalf of the sportsmen and the resource.

[Willie]

In my dealings with the Indiana DNR public input sessions I have found that it is a lot easier to get people involved if they are "against something" than getting folks involved that are "for something." Especially if the "something" will seemingly impact those people that are "against something".

In this case the commissioners have rightfully (IMO) went with what the survey of KY hunters have said when they answered the survey. Contrary to what some folks on here have said - it was scientific.

The survey was not just the archers or turkeys hunters but a cross section of all hunters. The hunting seasons belong to ALL hunters and people who would be hunters and not just the archers or turkey hunters. EVERYONE should have a say.

In the case of the appeal we have a very vocal minority showing up to be "against something" that could possibly affect them, or so they think. In this case it is the crossbow legalization.

The commission made their decision, using the true facts on hand, to legalize the crossbows according to what the survey said.

Now the shame would be if these same commissioners reversed their decision because some people could get a vocal minority who would show up at the meeting and make it appear that this is what the KY hunters wanted.

The survey has already proven what the real KY hunters want and not just a few that are out to keep things the way they are for themselves.

IMO - They are very short sighted and only care for themselves and NOT really considering the future of hunting.

[Multidigits]

Response in red. It's easier on thses long ones.

Multi, here's what burned me up about this. In the past--take the October season--important decisions, particularly social decisions, were never raised and decided in a single Committee meeting/Commission meeting cycle. The primary reason for that was to allow time for word to disseminate through the Districts, allow the district commissioners to see where their federations stood, and if people disagreed, give folks time to work out a compromise. There's been hundreds of decisions made in one series of meetings. As for this one, you and I both know it's not a new issue and that it's been discussed before. Times have evolved and now was the time to make the change. Had it not come up this March, it would have been brought up next March. And March has always been the traditional meeting for deer season changes, and now fall turkey season changes. So, it was the same basiic process. Now when you brought in the Fall Gun season, it was new ground. Teh crossbow is a completely separate issue in relationship to the new fall gun season. As you know, that required compromise with the UBK. the Commission knew there was no chance of a compromise with the UBK on this issue, so they acted in good faith as they felt they should for the good of the whole. I support the process, the way it was done in this issue and the outcome. Now, when you become Commissioner, you can change the process to something different. To change it for this one issue wouldn't be right.

In this case, this came up from somewhere inside the department, so its not like it was floating around through the clubs and federations for a while, and then somebody took it to their commissioner, who would typically do the "hey, what do you think about this.." thing in the committee. In my experience, that usually results in staff being told to go work it up and bring it back to the next committee meeting 90 days hence. So there's a bunch of time to get the word around, let people present their opinions, suggestions, etc. I have no doubt that this came from inside the dept. Maybe it's a brainstorm of the new marketing director? Crossbow has been very good for some other game depts. and will be here also. I doubt we'll ever know who put it on the agenda. It would have made it on the agenda at some point anyway, so it's not a biggie. as for public input, it's not the first time that something has passed without notice and without much public comment. I can bet this one has generated more than most and the public did have their comment period. How much is enough, and how long should it have been delated, could have been debated as long as the issue itself. I regard the Commission decision as a tuff one, as governing bodies normally have to make. I don't think any of the 9 took the vote lightly and didn't think it out. And I'll say that I don't think any of the 9 are out to screw over the hunters of Ky. In this case, they did the right thing.

Here, Jon Gassett brings it up in the February committee meeting. They committee votes to send it to the full Commission at the March meeting, 30 days hence.

Now this is absolutely the very shortest possible time allowed for comment by law. I'm not saying this is a bad procedure for the run-of-the-mill stuff. I am saying that where everyone at the committee meeting perfectly understands that this is primarily a "social" issue, why do you enact it under a time frame that doesn't give the federations a realistic chance to consider it? Which doesn't even give the State NWTF a time to meet? That comes during the NWTF's banquet season when we're focusing to raise the hundreds of thousands we've donated to the Department. In my opinion, one of the reasons was the data gathered by the Dept. biologists that said it would have no impact on the resource. I don't blame the commission for wanting to shorten the process to eliminate all the crap that's come up since the change. Make the change and get over it. I agree with the way it was handled.

And I think its key that this was characterized by the department as a social issue--meaning one that affects us. We pay the bills. I don't think many if anyone really believes this was just a social issue. It surely will impact license sales and retention. Two of the items we've been looking at for years and trying to figure ways to improve both. this does with the stroke of the pen.

What scares me is allowing this as a precedent. Can you imagine if ten years from now they did this with respect to spending the surplus? Let's say they were thinking about spending $5 million of it on habitat improvement, and not a dime of it was going to go in your area? You see what I'm driving at? The $32 million went to $27 million between meetings. Someone spent that $5 million somewhere. Do we appeal and find out where or trust it went somewhere good????? As for spending it on something that doesn't go to my area, I'd say that's happened a bunch. I don't have elk and that's the focus. We just put in a deal to barter elk tags for land on two week leases, and no one tried to stop it from any of the out of zone districts. No one cared, much like the majority on the crossbow issue.

In my government experience, we believed that if in doubt, err on the side of allowing more public comment, not less. That meant some pretty late and pretty contentious meeting from time to time. But in the end, it was the right way to go. The citizen should never feel that something is being crammed down on them by government without the right to be heard. That is not good, and it is not good for public confidence in the agency. I'll say that big businesses, and the KYDFWR is a big business do not ask their employees and customers on how they should spend their money or run their business. CEOs and leaders are paid to lead. the Commission isn't paid, but they have the same tasks. They did their job based on the best science available from all the info they had. It is the right decision, based on those facts.

Tom, sorry if I got harsh. I consider you a friend, but that anti-hunter comment got a rise out of my German temper. I understand completely, I appoligize for the choice of words. I too consider you a frriend and ally on most issues. We'll work this out, hopefully where everyone can live with it.

[Multidigits]

This is truly now becoming completely ridiculous. Seasoned wildlife/sportsmen's activists have lost all perspective, and a great deal of their credibility, over an inanimate object and we've fallen into the very trap that was set for us.

I spent 3 very frustrating hours last night attempting to keep a club meeting in my district focused on the issues, rather than degrade into a full scale sportsmen vs. sportsmen pissing match. I met some new players last night...Jimmy Meadows, State President of the UBK, and Lou Ortega, President of the KY Alternative Livestock Association. Mr. Meadows and I had a very good conversation for probably an hour prior to the meeting, and I thought we had an understanding, then at the meeting he trotted out the most BS laden piece of video tape that I've seen in awhile, produced by a national bowhunting group, that served absolutely NO purpose other than to pit one group of sportsmen against another. Personally, I considered it shameful. Also, after all of the rhetoric that I've heard demonizing Mr. Ortega, I was surprised to find him one of the more reasonable and level headed gentlemen present.

The more I learn about KALA and the individuals involved, the more I'm CONVINCED that they are the victims of a KDFWR smear campaign, and likely have more to do with this crossbow issue, indirectly, than I would have thought. IMHO, it will likely come out that the flow of misinformation coming out of the KDFWR regarding KALA had a direct impact on TB's sudden "retirement", and this xbow issue has been floated out from within the KDFWR administration as a smokescreen to deflect attention from the corruption that is finally seeing the light of day, IF WE AS SPORTSMEN WOULD ONLY GET OUR COLLECTIVE HEADS OUT OF OUR ASSES AND SEE WHAT HAS BEEN OCCURRING, instead of pissing and moaning over something as TRIVIAL as a xbow, while we give a free pass to the ones that truly have CAUSED the problems.

Multi, you need to quit being such an ass just because the opportunity is there. You are winning and you're likely correct in your beleifs, but you know damn good and well that what Schuyler is saying is true. Sure this issue was handled like many others in the past few years...ISN'T THAT EXACTLY WHAT WE'VE BEEN FIGHTING AGAINST...backroom deals and political maneuvering. Also, on a side personal note, if you had paid attention with an open mind at the January LKS board meeting to the information provided regarding KALA and the misinformation that TB presented, along with looking between the lines, you would now be much further along on the real issues that are causing this firestorm now.

And Schuyler, you are being disingenuous with your claims of improper proceedure and harm to the resource, when you USED the same system and claimed no damage to the resource when you ramrodded through the changes to the fall shotgun turkey season a couple of years ago.

IMHO, on this issue you are BOTH right and you are BOTH wrong.

Let's keep our eye on the ball gentlemen...Tom Bennett, the KDFWR administration, and the Commission have corrupted our department, and its time to take it back and regain some credibility with the sportsmen.

Schuyler, I have stated this in public many times, including last night, and now I'm stating it here...I fully support you being the next Commissioner of the KDFWR because I think you are just as capable of a politician as Tom Bennett, you are likely a better administrator, and I believe you are head and shoulders above him in the integrity department, plus you already have a firm handle on the pertinent issues facing the sportsmen and resources of Kentucky, and most importantly, I believe you are seeking this office for the right reasons...a genuine concern and passion for the sportsmen and resources of Kentucky. I'm also quite sure its not for monetary gain as you are likely taking a pay cut from being an attorney in Louisville compared to this position's salary. Good Luck!!!

IMHO, this entire xbow issue is irrelevant, and has been used quite effectively to split the sportsmen in order to deflect heat from Tom Bennett and the Commission. Let's all take the high road on this, and unite the sportsmen, against the true cause of the problems and work to hire a new commissioner that will provide a vision for the KDFWR to move forward and succeed, on behalf of the sportsmen and the resource.

Well, there's two votes for Sky, mine and GG. No comment on most of the rest of the post. It might be trivial to Mark, but it's not to those wanting the change. For what ever reason it was brought down, I doubt seriously if Lou had anything to do with it. Maybe with the demise of CTB, but not the crossbow. I know what your thinking, and it doesn't fit.

[grouseguy]

Tom,

I'd like to ask you to rethink my premise. I have given this a lot of thought, talked to many within and outside of the KDFWR, and we are all aware of the budget irregularities, along with the recent audit. Personally, I think it fits together nicely with very few loose ends. Just consider it with an open mind...it may be that you are too close to the crossbow issue to see the "rest of the story" at first glance.

On a side note, whoever the new commissioner is needs to set a meeting and clear up the cervid ranching clusterf@#k once and for all. Seriously Tom, these guys are getting screwed, and they are no different than us, they just pursue a different interest. Keep in mind that 100% of our information on the subject has come through TB at KDFWR or parrotted to the LKS by Terry Sullivan, and their version won't stand up to scrutiny. In fact, based on what I now believe, I think this "misinformation" that we've been getting about this issue can be directly linked to TB's sudden "retirement". Furthermore, I believe evidence exists that TB lied directly to the LKS Board at the January meeting on this issue.

I'm not saying that KALA or any of their members have anything to do with the xbow issue. I'm suggesting that both issues are connected by a common person/situation, and I now see the "big picture" that TB always spoke of, and its not pretty.

[Multidigits]

Tom,

I'd like to ask you to rethink my premise. I have given this a lot of thought, talked to many within and outside of the KDFWR, and we are all aware of the budget irregularities, along with the recent audit. Personally, I think it fits together nicely with very few loose ends. Just consider it with an open mind...it may be that you are too close to the crossbow issue to see the "rest of the story" at first glance.

On a side note, whoever the new commissioner is needs to set a meeting and clear up the cervid ranching clusterf@#k once and for all. Seriously Tom, these guys are getting screwed, and they are no different than us, they just pursue a different interest. Keep in mind that 100% of our information on the subject has come through TB at KDFWR or parrotted to the LKS by Terry Sullivan, and their version won't stand up to scrutiny. In fact, based on what I now believe, I think this "misinformation" that we've been getting about this issue can be directly linked to TB's sudden "retirement". Furthermore, I believe evidence exists that TB lied directly to the LKS Board at the January meeting on this issue.

I'm not saying that KALA or any of their members have anything to do with the xbow issue. I'm suggesting that both issues are connected by a common person/situation, and I now see the "big picture" that TB always spoke of, and its not pretty.

Believe me, I saw the rest of the story long before you did. While the rest of the world was blaming me for getting the crossbow issue on the agenda, I already knew who it came from. Still, it's time for it and I'm fighting tooth and nail till it's over. I'm not about to cloud the issue with a conspiracy theory tied to the game farm situation. Those guys have enough money to buy and sell me many times over, if they can't fight their own battles, there's nothing I can do to help them. The numbers that we heard at the LKS meeting might have been under reported, it seems. But why complain, one or nine hundred, it was the straw that broke the camels back. Ina few short weeks, we'll have a new man at the helm. We can only hope he'll be a fair manager and look for the most bang for our buck. At this time it's to see this crossbow issue through. More oppurtunity, with no harm to the resource should be the goal. I hope you'll agree?

[grouseguy]

I don't agree with everything said or done on your side of the debate, but the basic premise of greater opportunity without harming the resources...yes, I agree with that. I understand your position...Good Luck!

[Highbow]

GG , Multi & Sky, First let me say , as I said first hand, I support Sky for Commissioner and trust his opinion and judgement to do the right moves within the Dept to straighten out many of the problems created by TB and DH.
It is a dirty shame that the very employees the Dept has in the field have been told time and again to keep there mouth shut and not allowed to give important input into the decisions made by the commissioners. The time to change for the better is now and the fighting needs to stop. I have been turned away from this whole matter due the fighting that was created by TB and Multi if you know for a fact who injected thexbow issue why not spell him out?
Our deer hunting has been hurt by lack of CO's and poor regulations of harvest for the last five years. WE have brought people in from other states that had not a clue about KY wildlife and our hunters. I hope the we can get our act together for the improvement of DEpt, the public input allowed, and get back to making sure we have an abundant supply of fish & game for all without the constant battle of one organization against the other.

[plowboy]

Good Grief Charlie Brown. Will some "reliable" source just tell me when I can go turkey hunting, and what kind of weapon shold I use.

[Okie]

Nathan, another slam that DR Gassett doesn't know wildlife because he wasn't born in KY ? BULL CRAP

[Multidigits]

I agree with Okie, Dr. Gassett has been doing an excellant job as the Wildlife Director among his other duties. You couldn't ask for a better man for the job. sharp as a tack when it comes to deer too.

[Highbow]

Would you two care to read again, I never used Dr Gassett name the first time. Hell, Jon is a heck of a nice guy and very smart. You two have need to read more carefully.

[gwhilikerz]

Would you two care to read again, I never used Dr Gassett name the first time. Hell, Jon is a heck of a nice guy and very smart. You two have need to read more carefully.

You said: "WE have brought people in from other states that had not a clue about KY wildlife and our hunters. " Who does that fit?

[Okie]

Would you two care to read again, I never used Dr Gassett name the first time.

Do you think it might be we HAVE read the last few years ? Search your old posts -- check how we need John Phillips back, and a few dozen other similar statements made by you. Not once or twice but over and over. Go ahead and read the old stuff -- I did. :eek: