Where I Stand

[schuyler olt]

Just in case anybody gives a rip....

Turkeys

This much expansion concerns me. Yes, I know what Jim Lane says, and I'm not a biologist. However, I worked very closely with both Jim and George Wright for many years. Until now, the philosohy was to err strongly on the side of conservative expansion, and I don't want to see that precedent abandoned. Turkeys are not deer. Whereas deer reproduction and deer survival is not impacted by our weather, turkey reproduction is heavily weather dependant, and our propensity for wet springs doesn't help. Two successive bad hatches and we are in a world of hurt, even without the expansion of crossbow season.

I am not against any expansion. In fact, because the data from other states is pretty difficult to compare to our situation, and since we've never tracked xbows seperately, I would like to see something like a 30 day season with specific tracking of xbows, do that for a couple of years, and look at the data. We still provide increased opportunity, which I support and always have, and we greatly decrease the risk of harvest.

Whatever that risk, let me put it this way. I don't wake up in the morning expecting to die that day, but I don't let my life insurance lapse, either. Starting with a shorter season is a means to provide that insurance of the resource.

Keep in mind that if we overkill, and since we'll never know the number of birds crippled, we might not see that coming for a couple of years. Not many of you have sat in the snow on a windy, cold February morning waiting for a flock to hit the bait site for the cannon net. I have, and I've felt that sickness when you open a transport box and the bird couldn't stand the stress. Restocking is hard work, and it's not inexpensive, either. I worked too damn long and hard to restore these birds to want to risk having to do it all over again. George left us a legacy of a fantastic flock. It would kill me if that legacy were lost.

So I suggest we go slowly, look at the numbers, and take it from there. Believe me, expanding a season is easier than contracting one.


The Process

This is where I grind my teeth, and my position would be no different if the vote came out the other way. This really has nothing to do with crossbows and everything to do with respecting us, and giving us a meaningful opportunity to be heard.

I don't know why it was done this way, and the motives are completely irrelevant to me. I mean no disrespect to any Commissioner, Tom Bennett or any employee of the KDFWR. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even think about it. I've been in government, and that's easy enough to do.

Most of us here have become active in clubs, organizations and the like for the specific purpose of increasing our voice in the affairs of OUR department. The thirty day process employed in this case gave us the absolute smallest window of opportunity allowed by law. There is absolutely no debate about that. That is a bad precedent to set in substantial matters, especially if we know that they will be hotly contested. This isn't the first time this has come up and there isn't a single one of us who didn't KNOW that this issue would be a fire storm.

Those of you who favor the expansion, I would like you to really search your hearts on this, and answer this question:

How would you feel if this same procedure was used to sell off a WMA, such as Auxier Flats? We stood shoulder to shoulder on that one. Do you think it would have been the right way to go about things in that case?

If we accept it here, we will have a hard time complaining if it happens again.

My second point on this goes back to my personal experience with the October turkey season. If you recall, that took about a year, and it was that issue that brought me here to this site. It would do you well to go back in the archives and look at some of those posts. That dialogue got pretty harsh at times. But through it we began to find ways to reach common ground, so that we came to the Commission with a consensus, and not one single soul felt that they hadn't had their say.

I worked with UBK on that issue. At first, their position was EXACTLY what it is here. But Jerry Napier and Walt were quick to agree to sit down and discuss it, and we did just that. They were absolute gentlemen in the process and we began to find some common areas. Nobody backed anybody into a corner, and nobody bullied. And we came out of that process with mutual respect, and that benefitted each and every single sportsman in this state, whether they know it or not.

I am firmly convinced we could have done that here if we had been afforded the opportunity. I think it can happen here, but if and only if the Commission recinds the expansion so that everybody starts on a level playing field. Negotiations where one faction believes they strongly have the upper hand rarely work. I know that those of you who support the expansion would have a hard time agreeing to jointly ask the Commission to pull it back. But think long and hard about it, and consider this--can you believe the powerful message this would send regarding the importance of giving the sportsmen a meaningful voice and role?

If that were to happen, and even if it doesn't, I pledge to you on both sides of this issue that if asked, I will work my tail off to see that both sides work together and in good faith to see if we can't find some common ground. In my heart of hearts, I truly believe that's possible.

So yes, I am working to rescind the expansion. But my motive is NOT to keep sportsmen out of the field. My motive is to restore faith and credibilty. My motive is to see us once again working together instead of against one another. My motive is to see friendship replace rancor. My motive is to bring the sportmen and the department back to a position of mutual respect and trust. And I want to ensure that we stand for the principle that in these types of matters, we will have the opportunity to be heard and to find common ground so that folks do not feel left out of the process.

So that's where I stand. I ask each and every one of you, on both sides of this issue, to stand with me.

[gwhilikerz]

Sorry, I can't stand with you on this one. The commission spoke, the vote was made. Crossbows are now a part of archery season, barring a complete meltdown of the commission system, and it is about time. I for one do not buy the theory that xbows will decimate the turkey flock. I don't believe archery hunting figures all that prominently in the turkey population. Most bowhunters are hunting deer. They occasionaly have the chance to harvest a bird if it walks up, but not many bowhunters go out with the express purpose of turkey hunting. It is the deer that should be the focus and not a turkey smokescreen. The deer herd is healthy and increasing. The Commission saw that xbows would fit in nicely with the archery season without unduely stressing the deer or cutting into their numbers by much at all. I applaud the commission for looking into the future and putting KY in the forefront of the xbow debate, thereby getting us through the storm and learning curve. Other states will see our stats and make their choices. What this whole debate is about is that bowhunters are afraid they will lose some of their time or have to share. Yet every other hunter in KY, be it rifle, mz, xbow, small game, etc. has to share with the bowhunter during each particular season. Now maybe if the bow was only allowed in a regular archery season but had to be abandoned during other hunting seasons they would have a legitimate reason for their selfishness. But that hasn't happened.

[schuyler olt]

Gwillikerz,

"The Commission spoke, the vote was made." Will you say the same thing if the same procedure is used someday to sell off Yellowbank WMA?

I didn't speak to the deer issue because, in all honesty, my back doesn't fancy it very well, and that's whether I hunt with a bow or a gun. Leaning over to field dress one is good for about two days of agony. So I turkey hunt with a bow from the ground, and I don't use a blind. I don't care what others do with respect to stands and blinds--the way I do it is the way most satisfying to me. And them big ole ugly headed suckers are a passion for me and have been for a pretty long time. Turkeys aren't deer, and they shouldn't be looked at as casualties of "friendly fire" from opportunistic archers, nor should they be managed like deer. Fortunately, that is rarely the case in the KDFWR.

Just for the heck of it, someday next fall take your bow out and go specifically turkey hunting from the ground. It's a blast, and I promise you'll enjoy it. Go out this spring and use your xbow instead of your shotgun--it's legal. You'll see how much easier it is than using a vertical bow.

I'm not busting your chops in this reply, so please don't take it in that stance. I'm not anti xbow, I'm just asking for help in trying to find common ground. Thanks, by the way, for taking the time to read my post and reply.

[Dalebow]

Mr Olt

with all the bashing on here it's nice to see an explanation put so well, I have to agree and having a trial season would help put a lot of fears to rest. Well Done.

Dale

[globemountain]

I found this interesting. This is Ohio's numbers after 29 years of Archery/Crossbow season.

From the Ohio DNR Page:
Ohio hunters have set a new record, taking 217,301 deer during the 2004-2005 hunting season. Additional records were set during the muzzleloader, archery and youth hunting seasons.
Counties reporting the highest number of deer checked during the year were: Tuscarawas - 8,293; Coshocton - 7,055; Licking - 6,610; Washington - 6,110; Guernsey - 6, 028; Harrison - 6, 021; Holmes - 5,930; Athens - 5,915; Muskingum - 5,779; and Jefferson - 5,481. See table of total deer harvest by county (http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/News/hunting_harvesttotals0105.htm).

From opening day of the deer-archery season in October, Ohio hunters were on a record- setting pace. Young hunters set a new mark in the second year of the state’s two-day youth deer-gun season with 6,673 deer killed.

During the four-day statewide muzzleloader season, hunters took a record 27,749 deer. Hunters also exceeded the record for deer taken during the archery season (October 2 to January 31) with 57,198. A total of 125,681 deer was killed during the popular one-week deer gun season.

[grouseguy]

Schuyler,

As I've often said, I don't have a dog in this fight, I don't bow hunt at all, period. However, as you might expect, I do have an opinion...I agree with gwhilikerz that I truly don't think xbows will have an ounce of impact on the resource (deer or turkey), but that is not the REAL issue here.

I have discussed this with Rick Hahn (Xtreme) and I will offer the same perception and advice here. The UBK have been their own worst enemy in this debate, and have alienated many of their fellow sportsmen with their blatant selfishness. Rick keeps saying that he feels there was something fishy with the vote, (and FWIW I agree) but when the UBK speaks, they only speak about the harm xbows will cause to their sport and how additional hunters will infringe on the bowhunters time afield. IMHO, this is a "loser" argument, but the unused argument about the mishandled vote is a clear "winner".

Therefore, I can support your proposal with good conscience. The way this issue was ramrodded through the commission could clearly come back to bite the sportsmen if we let it stand without opposition. It will be a bitter pill to swallow for the pro-xbow folks, but it is in the best interest of all sportsmen. If you are successful, it would also be in the best interest of the sportsmen, in general, and the UBK, in particular, if they would refrain from gloating should you be successful and get the vote rescinded. The UBK will need to be reminded that they didn't "win" anything...in reality they LOST...and it will be the efforts of their fellow sportsmen, acting in the best interests of ALL sportsmen, that will cause the rescission, and this issue will likely be revisited soon with ample opportunity for a full debate of the entire xbow issue.

IMHO, you are speaking with the "voice of reason" on a topic that has become "unreasonable". Good Luck and you can count on my support.

[Multidigits]

Obviously, I disagree with Sky's opinion, and won't agree to any compromise on days hunting. I might consider a across the board reduction in FALL turkey harvest. Being that the crossbow will have absolutely no impact on Spring hunting. The Oct. Fall season wasn't put in as a test, it was put in, and the Dec. Fall season remained. What happened--the harvest triple plus a few and nobody asked to rescind any of the impact on the harvest. In fact, we hired a Marketing Director to sell more turkey hunts to kill even more. Yes, the two fall seasons were hightlighted in the announcement of the M.D. and the EXPANDING turkey flock.

I'll could agree that ALL fall hunters only kill one gobbler in each of the two separate season. Bowhunters, be them cross or conventional would be allowed one gobbler and one hen, fall gun hunters allowed the same. This should make up any difference in the number of gobblers left for the Spring hunt, which seems to be the concern.
I can't agree to limiting the number of days unless the whole archery season is limited. It's time to stop the discrimanation against weapon choice. Other states are doing it, and we've always been one of the leaders and one of the more aggressive game management agencies in the nation.

As for the notion that this process was any different than any other, or could lead to the sell off of a WMA, you need to take a reality check. Wasn't that long ago that a WMA was GIVEN AWAY and nobody went balistic. Had not the Cyberhunters stopped the Auxier Flats deal, it would have been gone WITHOUT the Commission lifting a finger. It wasn't their deal anyway.

The Commission process was the same in this issue as before, except that this issue has always been on the horizan. It wasn't a secret then and isn't now. To question the process as a backdoor move leaves one wondering "where have you been before". It wasn't the first one and won't be the last, not when the overwhelming majority refuse to get involved in the politics of the process. When Commissions get 4 or 5 calls on a full agenda in a 3 month period, it's surprising that anyone can make the claim that the agenda is being hidden. It wasn't in this case. And won't be in the future. Still the majority does not care one way or the other on the crossbow issue.

In my opinion, the Commission will be forced to up hold the decision. Several have alleged that the Commission is crooked, that they launched this conspiracy because of C.Toms retirement, that they recieved payoffs, and who knows what. That means all nine of them, not just two or three you want to get rid of. Including the 2 new ones appointed by Fletcher. So, are they all crooked or just a few. If it's just 2 or 3 of them how did they influence the good ones and the 2 new guys. Looks like the antis have a lot of proof to deliver before this is heard out.

[schuyler olt]

Tom,

Just to clarify, the "you" which you refer to in the last paragraph of your post is not intended to refer to me, is it? I also want to make it clear that I do not contend that anything underhanded was or is at work. Frankly, I have no evidence to suggest anything, so I can't make any accusation of such, nor will I.

The process may or may not have met the legal requirement of procedural due process. Whether substantive due process was afforded is another issue. Interestingly, I am not aware of a single municipal or county legislative body in Kentucky that can pass an ordinance (except some emergency issues) on a single reading or at a single meeting. Now why do they do that? So the public not only has notice, it has a "full and fair" opportunity to be heard.

And the committee meeting does not and cannot legally count as a second meeting because it is not a Commission meeting. And in all the commission meetings I've attended--and it's been a bunch, I've seen lesser matters tabled more times than I could possibly count. If the cervid ranchers could have matters tabled, why not the sportsmen of Kentucky who pay for the department?

[Al]

Thats a "pill" that is to big to swallow since the ubk leadership has made this a personal issue!

[schuyler olt]

I'm not a UBK member. Heck I keep forgetting to send in my dues to CyberHunters, so I'm not even a member of that. There are many non-UBK folks out there who share my concerns, and the vast majority of folks out there, both UBK and non-UBK, are truly dismayed by the personality issues that have surfaced.

[Multidigits]

Tom,

Just to clarify, the "you" which you refer to in the last paragraph of your post is not intended to refer to me, is it? I also want to make it clear that I do not contend that anything underhanded was or is at work. Frankly, I have no evidence to suggest anything, so I can't make any accusation of such, nor will I.

The process may or may not have met the legal requirement of procedural due process. Whether substantive due process was afforded is another issue. Interestingly, I am not aware of a single municipal or county legislative body in Kentucky that can pass an ordinance (except some emergency issues) on a single reading or at a single meeting. Now why do they do that? So the public not only has notice, it has a "full and fair" opportunity to be heard.

And the committee meeting does not and cannot legally count as a second meeting because it is not a Commission meeting. And in all the commission meetings I've attended--and it's been a bunch, I've seen lesser matters tabled more times than I could possibly count. If the cervid ranchers could have matters tabled, why not the sportsmen of Kentucky who pay for the department?

The "you" can/does mean anyone that wants to have a few of the Commissioners removed because they've been there too long, because they have too much power, because they cough during the meeting, or are hard of hearing. I've heard all of those things since the decision on March the 4th. No, it specificly doesn't mean you, but it could if that's the overall motive of being against the process. I don't see how you can be against the process and not be for all of the Commissioners, even the two new ones? And don't worry, there's plenty of allegations out there, including the ridiculous notion that Dr. Webb got a crossbow in the mail.The man needs a crossbow like I need another hole in my head. Not considering that he's a doctor and could probably afford to buy his own.

"I am not aware of a single municipal or county legislative body in Kentucky that can pass an ordinance (except some emergency issues) on a single reading or at a single meeting." Is this a new revolation or what??? IT"S THE SAME EXACT PROCESS USED IN THE PAST. Every single time. Nothing new. It wasn't that long ago that the agendas started getting posted in a public forum, and in a timely way.

No one asked or commented at the Committee meeting to table the measure. At the Commission meeting, two people asked for it to be. Both should have been better prepared in their presentation. One was Strader, who thought he had a good arguement, but was shot down on all counts because of the data that Dey, Lane and Gassett had gathered. The other was Joe from NWTF, he should have had a feeling of how the turkey people wanted to go, not that it would matter. In the past, we've seen them "defer to the biologist" on matters that their membership had overwhelmingly opposed (Sat. opener). So apparently, the Commission decided to not wait for more of the same, and I don't blame them a bit.

We you keep saying the "sportsman" of Ky. you need to realize that in Eastern Ky. their hundreds that have always been for a crossbow expansion. Then your discounting the survey results. Surely you have to believe the survey results, because they reuslts of it have been used in many more decisions other than this one.

Last, I hope you consider teh fact that your hoping to be hired for Tom's job someday. I'd think it's kind of crazy to be questioning a process that's been used many times in the past, and it's effectiveness. NOW, if I'm wrong, tell me how the process was different this time than in the past on important issues. Some even more earhtshattering then this one????

[joekat46]

About a week into this crossbow fight I went from an amused observer to a pro crossbow supporter. INMO the actions and comments from the UBK have been as selfish as anything I have witnessed in any hunting issue. There is enough evidence from Ohio and other crossbow states to lead a reasonable person to believe that the crossbow will have no biological negative effect on game populations. That should be the final word but as we see it isn't.

If the crossbow does not receive full approval now it is a dead issue never to seriously surface again. No politician or commissioner will want to go through this again and won't. The end result will be the UBK boys will start sharing their woods with about 6 weeks worth of gun hunters. They'll wish the crossbowers had won and put this result off for a few years.

My opinion now doesn't mean much since I'm an out of stater but the chance to build bridges and find neutral ground has long since faded. My own choice will be to not pee on a UBK mouthpiece if I see him on fire (cleaned that one up a bit). This argument did set pro hunting causes back about 10 years. If I was a PETA member I'd have to think I was being set up. It has to be a trap. These guys can't really be this dumb.

[turk2di]

Im with Sky on this. Im passionate about the turkey flock as well, even tho i didn't spend endless Feburary days in a blind hopin to net a flock. After reading hundred's of reply's concerning this issue, more & more to me it's not about harvest effects of deer or turkey, of which im concerned. It's about the process and how it was done. Democracy done properly isn't rammed down your throat, it's spoon fed so that all pertinate facts are digested and then a resonable piece of legislation can be put forth for all to vote on. This was done quite rapidly, some survey of two years ago not withstanding. If im not mistaken, the Dept. toured around back in the late 80's or early 90's getting sportsman input on the one buck rule, why not a similar public canvas regarding major change proposals? There are many hunters out there that are still miffed about Saturday openers for turkey, that didn't like the April 15th compromise, that couldn't understand the labor day weekend opener for deer, ect. My point is that many feel that that thier opinion's were formulated AFTER the fact on many issue's! Much less asked for! A real effort by the Commissioners needs to be made to insure that all sportsman across the Commonwealth are as informed as soon as possible on pending changes!

[joekat46]

[QUOTE=multidickhead]Posted by multidigits.... "Obviously, I disagree with Sky's opinion, and won't agree to any compromise on days hunting. I might consider a across the board reduction in FALL turkey harvest."



You're a class act there "dick". Obviously this site isn't monitored. You will fit right in with the other UBK thugs and bullies.

P.S. - nice bio

[Walt K]

You're a class act there "dick". Obviously this site isn't monitored. You will fit right in with the other UBK thugs and bullies.

P.S. - nice bio

Joe,
For an out-of-stater..and an ex-cop, you sure have a lot of beef with a state organization that sponsors many conservation efforts and programs. Why would anyone expect a state archery organization NOT to defend the sport of bowhunting, to include a non-bow weapon intrusion? You really know nothing about the 26 year history of UBK. There's a lot of fine members, members with families, who hunt and fish and enjoy the great outdoors like everyone else. This issue has always been an equipment issue with UBK. In fact, I just received the tapes of the recorded commissioner session this week. I am in the process of transcribing them now. And I will post the UBK's official statement to the commission on March 4. There was only one official statement and those on here will see what the UBK actually said. Individuals may have their comments, who belong to the UBK, that doesn't mean that's the organizations official position. Too many folks on here are 'assuming' and organization bashing.

[Multidigits]

Joe,
For an out-of-stater..and an ex-cop, you sure have a lot of beef with a state organization that sponsors many conservation efforts and programs. Why would anyone expect a state archery organization NOT to defend the sport of bowhunting, to include a non-bow weapon intrusion? You really know nothing about the 26 year history of UBK. There's a lot of fine members, members with families, who hunt and fish and enjoy the great outdoors like everyone else. This issue has always been an equipment issue with UBK. In fact, I just received the tapes of the recorded commissioner session this week. I am in the process of transcribing them now. And I will post the UBK's official statement to the commission on March 4. There was only one official statement and those on here will see what the UBK actually said. Individuals may have their comments, who belong to the UBK, that doesn't mean that's the organizations official position. Too many folks on here are 'assuming' and organization bashing.

How is the sport of bowhunting being attack where it needs defending? In fact, that's what this is all about--making bowhunting stronger by adding more hunters.

One official statement by the UBK--not true. I too have a tape and saw several UBK members address the board as a UBK member. If they said something you don't like, that's your problem.

Any bashing that's taken place has been welldeserved by the way you and your members have conducted themselves. Too bad.

[joekat46]

Joe,
For an out-of-stater..and an ex-cop, you sure have a lot of beef with a state organization that sponsors many conservation efforts and programs. Why would anyone expect a state archery organization NOT to defend the sport of bowhunting, to include a non-bow weapon intrusion? You really know nothing about the 26 year history of UBK. There's a lot of fine members, members with families, who hunt and fish and enjoy the great outdoors like everyone else. This issue has always been an equipment issue with UBK. In fact, I just received the tapes of the recorded commissioner session this week. I am in the process of transcribing them now. And I will post the UBK's official statement to the commission on March 4. There was only one official statement and those on here will see what the UBK actually said. Individuals may have their comments, who belong to the UBK, that doesn't mean that's the organizations official position. Too many folks on here are 'assuming' and organization bashing.

Walt - change that to a now glad to be out of stater and retired cop. Thank you.
Yes - I would expect a state archery organization to allow another weapon to share the woods with them especially if the weapon also propelled a broadhead tipped projecticle that killed THE SAME WAY as their weapon of choice. You are going to end up in your treestand, in BLAZE ORANGE, sharing the woods during a much expanded gun season. I hope you enjoy it. Those deer running by ducking lead should be a challenge fitting your group of elite archers. Your organization is doing absolutely nothing in this fight that defends the sport of bowhunting. To even imply it is ridiculous. Bow hunting was never "under attack" in this fight. Your actions in manipulating the commissioners will have ramifications for years to come. I'm am now under the impression you will win this round. The "esq" titles that started popping up caused this feeling. They usually like to be lined up on the winning side (we all do - they're just better at it). When it's the ALAMO all gloves are off.

[gwhilikerz]

I would be interested in knowing who made the "official" statement for the UBK. I mean no disrespect to anyone but there have been many claims about the official position of UBK and several other groups. Maybe if we had a scorecard of who "officially" speaks for what group we would not be so quick to blame any group for the "unofficial" statements.

[Multidigits]

Mike whelan spoke, Walt spoke, Rick Hahn Spoke, all id as UBK members and all are officers of the club in one form or the the other. Walt is attempting to mislead us again for some reason. It's not working.

[aceoky]

So some think it will ACTUALLY be changed????? If so, what about the people that (may have) bought crossbows since the decision , did they spend that $$$ just to use during the "old rules"? If not will they be somehow compensated?

A HUGE can of worms IF it indeed is amended!?????

(and that' s only 1 "for instance" of how things can go)....

I for one, am seriously concerned, that such a "fight/division" could be over simply allowing another weapon(and it IS archery, by any definition) :D

Surely we'll all hang separately!!!(Ben Franklin at the signing of the Declaration of Independance.......short version).....applies here?????

[Multidigits]

The trend nationwide is to end the discrimination shown towards the crossbow. As the dynamics of game management change, as the population models change and as game departments across the country come to grips with the changes, the crossbow makes more sense to them. Several other states are doing what we are doing. IF for some reason the decision is changed, then it will be back, either through the courts or through the new;y formed Commission. If not this year, it'll be next or the year after. It's a given that at some point, we will be hunting with the crossbow during all of the present archery season.

[Willie]

So some think it will ACTUALLY be changed????? If so, what about the people that (may have) bought crossbows since the decision , did they spend that $$$ just to use during the "old rules"? If not will they be somehow compensated?

A HUGE can of worms IF it indeed is amended!?????


willie -

You bring up a valid point.

Not everyone who is a deer hunter in the state of KY tunes in here or is a member of a state organization or even has a clue that there is another meeting on April 22nd..

BUT... the change (not a word about a "proposal") has been announced in various newspapers and it is listed as archery/crossbow on the KDF&W web page. It doesn't say "PENDING" or "PROPOSAL" on the KDF&W website it says it is in effect for this year's archery/crossbow season, so anyone looking at can say," WOW! I'm buying a crossbow!"

Now the KDF&W are going to come back and say," Hey, sorry but we were just kidding." ??????

I think the Genie is out of the bottle. They need to bite the bullet and leave it as it is.

Believe me, two years down the road it will be much ado about nothing. Everyone, that wants to, will still be hunting with their favorite bow. The guy over on the next 40 with a crossbow will have absolutely no impact on anyone else's hunting but his own.

[aceoky]

I'm also thinking of the father who (not that he could REALLY afford it), decides that since his favorite hunting buddy is his 16 year old son,(or daughter, or niece,nephew,grandchild etc....)... but said son(or) can't hold a bow very long, so why not????? NOW if it's reversed, what recourse should he now have(this hasn't happened that I know of BTW, but may have) :D

IF it stays the same "junior"(or) can practice and become good enough by bow season*(hence the early buy), but IF it's changed, and "junior"(or) gets "stuck" seems unfair at best, since it "passed"???????

[hobow]

So some think it will ACTUALLY be changed????? If so, what about the people that (may have) bought crossbows since the decision , did they spend that $$$ just to use during the "old rules"? If not will they be somehow compensated?

A HUGE can of worms IF it indeed is amended!?????

(and that' s only 1 "for instance" of how things can go)....

I for one, am seriously concerned, that such a "fight/division" could be over simply allowing another weapon(and it IS archery, by any definition) :D

Surely we'll all hang separately!!!(Ben Franklin at the signing of the Declaration of Independance.......short version).....applies here?????

Fear not fellow rednecks, for I will graciously buy back your "jumped the gun xbows" when the decision is reversed. ;)

[aceoky]

"Jumped the gun"???

When the Dept says it passed; I hardly think that would be correct???(and posts it on their website).....

I also think "when" should have be IF(note the caps) :D

[maxcam]

So some think it will ACTUALLY be changed????? If so, what about the people that (may have) bought crossbows since the decision , did they spend that $$$ just to use during the "old rules"? If not will they be somehow compensated?

A HUGE can of worms IF it indeed is amended!?????

(and that' s only 1 "for instance" of how things can go)....

I for one, am seriously concerned, that such a "fight/division" could be over simply allowing another weapon(and it IS archery, by any definition) :D

Surely we'll all hang separately!!!(Ben Franklin at the signing of the Declaration of Independance.......short version).....applies here?????

So if the KDFW proposes to allow machine guns then you will apply for your federal stamp ..........You see how the KDFW has already done a marvelous job in explaining this is a proposal that has to be approved by the Agriculture Committees of both sides of the legislative branch.....thats the Senate and House of Kentucky , then it will have to be signed by the governor.......as far as definition goes.........last time i checked there is no Pope and Young entry for crossbows. Does a gun that shoots arrows a piece of achery equipment as well?

[maxcam]

How is the sport of bowhunting being attack where it needs defending? In fact, that's what this is all about--making bowhunting stronger by adding more hunters.

One official statement by the UBK--not true. I too have a tape and saw several UBK members address the board as a UBK member. If they said something you don't like, that's your problem.

Any bashing that's taken place has been welldeserved by the way you and your members have conducted themselves. Too bad.


Let me ask you Multi......Why does the state need an extended crossbow season? There are 44 days crossbow hunters can be in the field. If you are physically limited and need to use a crossbow, the department has never turned down such a request. The KDFW says that shooting a bow....... well here is the exact quote......

“We were especially pleased to note how enthusiastically the students rooted for their fellow archery competitors. It is clear from having watched the student body shoot bows and arrows, that archery is a discipline suitable for all ages, sexes, and abilities."
Tom Bennett, Commissioner of Fish & Wildlife Resources

so what is your reason?

[Multidigits]

Let me ask you Multi......Why does the state need an extended crossbow season? There are 44 days crossbow hunters can be in the field. If you are physically limited and need to use a crossbow, the department has never turned down such a request. The KDFW says that shooting a bow....... well here is the exact quote......

“We were especially pleased to note how enthusiastically the students rooted for their fellow archery competitors. It is clear from having watched the student body shoot bows and arrows, that archery is a discipline suitable for all ages, sexes, and abilities."


Tom Bennett, Commissioner of Fish & Wildlife Resources


so what is your reason?





Because they can. the turkey flock is expanding . the deer herd has reached nearly a million animals. The overall number of hunters are dropping. More oppurtunity, for no harm to the resource. That's one of the missions of the KYDFWR and the Commission to do just that.

Again, the NAIS project is a 3 week target archery briefer. There's a few schools that take it a little further. There NO evidence that any of these kids will ever buy a hunting license or take up hunting to carry on the traditions. Crossbow is all about hunting, nothing more. Everyone that buys one or wants to buy one will be a hunter. Explain how that's not true?

[aceoky]

maxcam"So if the KDFW proposes to allow machine guns then you will apply for your federal stamp ..........You see how the KDFW has already done a marvelous job in explaining this is a proposal that has to be approved by the Agriculture Committees of both sides of the legislative branch.....thats the Senate and House of Kentucky , then it will have to be signed by the governor.......as far as definition goes.........last time i checked there is no Pope and Young entry for crossbows. Does a gun that shoots arrows a piece of achery equipment as well?"

A crossbow IS archery Euiptment(not a gun that shoots arrows, since there is no propellent; it launces a bolt(AKA ARROW propelled by a string, same as a "bow" does????) :D

Get it correct; what proposal? The "proposal" has PASSED! ( it wouldn't be in the "rules" for this fall had it not????)

BTW, for "machine guns"(or any fully auto) to be owned there is a FEDERAL process to be gone through, (in addition to the state's(hypothetical) propsal)........ They are legal to own(and were even during the AWB):D

IF it's a legal means of hunting, then I'm all "for it", we NEED more hunters(not fewer)!!!

[Xcutter]

I don't understand why/how you can use the "out of control deer pop." and "well Ohio has done this and Ohio has done that" as an excuse to legalize the xbow. Afterall the estimated deer pop. was pulled from a "crystal ball" and ohio does not get hammered with High powered rifles for three weeks. As a madder of fact they don't even use HP rifles. Also there season is a heck of alot shorter than ours too. I'm sure that Mr. Digits can post the exact dates. He can also vouch for the Crystal ball deer pop numbers.

[aceoky]

I don't understand why/how you can use the "out of control deer pop." and "well Ohio has done this and Ohio has done that" as an excuse to legalize the xbow. Afterall the estimated deer pop. was pulled from a "crystal ball" and ohio does not get hammered with High powered rifles for three weeks. As a madder of fact they don't even use HP rifles. Also there season is a heck of alot shorter than ours too. I'm sure that Mr. Digits can post the exact dates. He can also vouch for the Crystal ball deer pop numbers.

NOT ALL KY counties(zones) have a 3 week rifle season! Check Zones 3-4......

Archery hunting is a very poor deer herd reducing tool FACTS PROVE IT! So as a matter of FACT; x-bows aren't going to reduce the herd at any important level(ask any biologist if you doubt that) :)

It's "funny" to me(at least) how many gripe about poaching, and want more CO's but when anything is done to increase hunter numbers(thus revenue; perhaps making that possible); many of the same people will say " we don't want x-bow hunters getting more days they already have "X" days to use 'em etc. etc.

Simple question(yet again)......

It passed, why not let the numbers prove SOMETHING, and then use FACTS wouldn't that be a much wiser course of action??? It wouldn't be since it's highly unlikely that the facts would support all the "sky is falling" myths and speculations!!!

More women can NOW bowhunt;
More children can now (effectively);
More elderly can/will bowhunt(proven by recent sales as well as all of the above);

Now just HOW is this so bad??

PLEASE "enlighten us".

[shogan]

Uhm the high powered rifle argument has a few flaws.

The new rifled shotgun barrels and improved shot gun slugs are just as effective. ((My gosh look what we can do with a muzzle loader)).

Hunters will take any means available and improve it to it's maximum potential.

And few of us actually shoot deer at our rifles Long range capacity. And most are taken under 100 yards.

Can someone tell me what a low powered rifle is?

[aceoky]

A "low powered rifle" would be say a 30/40 Krag for instance(we found that our the HARD way BTW) :D

A "medium powered rifle" would be the 30/30.
FWIW

And in NO way is a rifled shotgun(even with sabots) close to a 30/06-or .308 or.....(perhaps a 30/30 though) :)

One's "shooting ability" has nothing to do with the weapon's range, it has it's own limiting factors, each of us should respect OUR ability over that of any weapon's range; sure not everyone will do that even with a longbow; but they should IMHO

[aceoky]

Uhm the high powered rifle argument has a few flaws.

The new rifled shotgun barrels and improved shot gun slugs are just as effective. ((My gosh look what we can do with a muzzle loader)).

Hunters will take any means available and improve it to it's maximum potential.

And few of us actually shoot deer at our rifles Long range capacity. And most are taken under 100 yards.

Can someone tell me what a low powered rifle is?

You make an excellent point BTW!

Since it's a FACT that most deer are killed (with firearms) under 100 yards, most shotgun slugs(and shotguns with or without rifled barrels) can handle that range rather easily; so Ohio's no HP rifles issue is a non-issue(if you kill it with a shotgun under 100 yards it's still just as dead) :)

Whether it's shot with a ML or Shotgun or HP rifle under 100 yards isn't very hard to do with any of 'em, but now try that with an x-bow(jokingly PLEASE don't) :D Not gonna do it! Out of range(and not just by a little bit either)

BTW the states that do NOT allow HP rifles do it for safety concerns(too populated near hunting areas) NOT for the deer herd(also FACTS you can easily check)

[Xcutter]

You make an excellent point BTW!

Since it's a FACT that most deer are killed (with firearms) under 100 yards, most shotgun slugs(and shotguns with or without rifled barrels) can handle that range rather easily; so Ohio's no HP rifles issue is a non-issue(if you kill it with a shotgun under 100 yards it's still just as dead) :)

Whether it's shot with a ML or Shotgun or HP rifle under 100 yards isn't very hard to do with any of 'em, but now try that with an x-bow(jokingly PLEASE don't) :D Not gonna do it! Out of range(and not just by a little bit either)

BTW the states that do NOT allow HP rifles do it for safety concerns(too populated near hunting areas) NOT for the deer herd(also FACTS you can easily check)


There is a key word in your speech, "MOST" not all and how in the hell do they get that statistic. Unless you shot it with a range finder you would never no the difference in 100 or 150 or 150 and 200. Thats how idiot proof a rifle is most people just put the ole cross hairs on it and pull the trigger!!!

[aceoky]

I'd "hope" that most people have been to at least a few football games, and also hope that most would know the difference in 100 yards as opposed to 200(that's twice the difference BTW.....that's a big lot of yards!)

I don't know where they get that "number" from, but since it's been that way for decades, AND never been challenged(and most hunters would like to "stretch" their kill's range a bit at least), I'll not question it; IF you do than you certainly have that right!

BTW in "most states", 90% of deer are killed at ranges under 100 yards, (according to the individual state's records), I'd guess it would be MUCH higher than that in some states, and much less in the Western states, but that' s only a guess!

I simply posted what has been known for many years, a statistic; can't see why that would "rile" anyone???

[Xcutter]

I did not say they couldn't tell the difference in 100 and 200 yards!!! Read carefully boys and girls! I said 100-150 and 150-200.

[aceoky]

I did not say they couldn't tell the difference in 100 and 200 yards!!! Read carefully boys and girls! I said 100-150 and 150-200.

What is the difference? Range estimation is; well range estimation if not please "enlighten us" .....

The "range " you used above is between 100-200 yards by any definition isn't it????

Now read closely, since the discussion you "chimed in on" was about less than 100 yards, it's not relevant any way???

Perhaps your time would/could be better spent on changing the topic, and then acting as if the original threads were what was incorrect????

Again, it's "odd" that when some want to "argue" they will try anything to do so; whether they have any valid point(s) to make or not???

BTW; it does appear that *we* are not the ones that should "read carefully"......

IF you don't have anything "meaningful" to add, why bother to post??? < read carefully (so that you might understand)
:)

[Xcutter]

What is the difference? Range estimation is; well range estimation if not please "enlighten us" .....

The "range " you used above is between 100-200 yards by any definition isn't it????

Now read closely, since the discussion you "chimed in on" was about less than 100 yards, it's not relevant any way???

Perhaps your time would/could be better spent on changing the topic, and then acting as if the original threads were what was incorrect????

Again, it's "odd" that when some want to "argue" they will try anything to do so; whether they have any valid point(s) to make or not???

BTW; it does appear that *we* are not the ones that should "read carefully"......

IF you don't have anything "meaningful" to add, why bother to post??? < read carefully (so that you might understand)
:)

If you want to talk about what is meaningful and what is not then we could delete half of what everyone on hear has said including yours. Now back on topic my reason for posting was to state that the range estimation is invalid. Personally i have never been asked what the adverage distance made on a deer with a gun!! And I'll bet that most on hear would say the same. Its just another number FandW or who ever you got that number from has dreamed up and if there was a survey then it was a bad one. Which would really not surprise me!!!

[gwhilikerz]

If you want to talk about what is meaningful and what is not then we could delete half of what everyone on hear has said including yours. Now back on topic my reason for posting was to state that the range estimation is invalid. Personally i have never been asked what the adverage distance made on a deer with a gun!! And I'll bet that most on hear would say the same. Its just another number FandW or who ever you got that number from has dreamed up and if there was a survey then it was a bad one. Which would really not surprise me!!!
Once again "the stats are wrong and nobody asked me. Who got the survey?" Some people never get the memo. No matter what they try to say the same old song comes out.

[aceoky]

Nothing important; NO facts, simply your opinion X-cutter; and FWIW I'd like to KNOW how and what qualifies you to KNOW that "range estimation was/is inaccurate"???

Also some "proof" would be nice that those numbers(widely accepted for decades) were "made up".....

Again the challenge to add FACTS/DATA to the forum, but I'd bet; that's "not gonna happen"........

BTW my posts contain FACTS/DATA, (and yes some opinions but based on who knows better than I believe we do)...

Thank you for your opinion on what IS and isn't worthy of your praise, I'm quite certain that it will be given all of the attention that it deserves..

:D

[Xtreme]

Just in case anybody gives a rip....

Turkeys

This much expansion concerns me. Yes, I know what Jim Lane says, and I'm not a biologist. However, I worked very closely with both Jim and George Wright for many years. Until now, the philosohy was to err strongly on the side of conservative expansion, and I don't want to see that precedent abandoned. Turkeys are not deer. Whereas deer reproduction and deer survival is not impacted by our weather, turkey reproduction is heavily weather dependant, and our propensity for wet springs doesn't help. Two successive bad hatches and we are in a world of hurt, even without the expansion of crossbow season.

I am not against any expansion. In fact, because the data from other states is pretty difficult to compare to our situation, and since we've never tracked xbows seperately, I would like to see something like a 30 day season with specific tracking of xbows, do that for a couple of years, and look at the data. We still provide increased opportunity, which I support and always have, and we greatly decrease the risk of harvest.

Whatever that risk, let me put it this way. I don't wake up in the morning expecting to die that day, but I don't let my life insurance lapse, either. Starting with a shorter season is a means to provide that insurance of the resource.

Keep in mind that if we overkill, and since we'll never know the number of birds crippled, we might not see that coming for a couple of years. Not many of you have sat in the snow on a windy, cold February morning waiting for a flock to hit the bait site for the cannon net. I have, and I've felt that sickness when you open a transport box and the bird couldn't stand the stress. Restocking is hard work, and it's not inexpensive, either. I worked too damn long and hard to restore these birds to want to risk having to do it all over again. George left us a legacy of a fantastic flock. It would kill me if that legacy were lost.

So I suggest we go slowly, look at the numbers, and take it from there. Believe me, expanding a season is easier than contracting one.


The Process

This is where I grind my teeth, and my position would be no different if the vote came out the other way. This really has nothing to do with crossbows and everything to do with respecting us, and giving us a meaningful opportunity to be heard.

I don't know why it was done this way, and the motives are completely irrelevant to me. I mean no disrespect to any Commissioner, Tom Bennett or any employee of the KDFWR. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even think about it. I've been in government, and that's easy enough to do.

Most of us here have become active in clubs, organizations and the like for the specific purpose of increasing our voice in the affairs of OUR department. The thirty day process employed in this case gave us the absolute smallest window of opportunity allowed by law. There is absolutely no debate about that. That is a bad precedent to set in substantial matters, especially if we know that they will be hotly contested. This isn't the first time this has come up and there isn't a single one of us who didn't KNOW that this issue would be a fire storm.

Those of you who favor the expansion, I would like you to really search your hearts on this, and answer this question:

How would you feel if this same procedure was used to sell off a WMA, such as Auxier Flats? We stood shoulder to shoulder on that one. Do you think it would have been the right way to go about things in that case?

If we accept it here, we will have a hard time complaining if it happens again.

My second point on this goes back to my personal experience with the October turkey season. If you recall, that took about a year, and it was that issue that brought me here to this site. It would do you well to go back in the archives and look at some of those posts. That dialogue got pretty harsh at times. But through it we began to find ways to reach common ground, so that we came to the Commission with a consensus, and not one single soul felt that they hadn't had their say.

I worked with UBK on that issue. At first, their position was EXACTLY what it is here. But Jerry Napier and Walt were quick to agree to sit down and discuss it, and we did just that. They were absolute gentlemen in the process and we began to find some common areas. Nobody backed anybody into a corner, and nobody bullied. And we came out of that process with mutual respect, and that benefitted each and every single sportsman in this state, whether they know it or not.

I am firmly convinced we could have done that here if we had been afforded the opportunity. I think it can happen here, but if and only if the Commission recinds the expansion so that everybody starts on a level playing field. Negotiations where one faction believes they strongly have the upper hand rarely work. I know that those of you who support the expansion would have a hard time agreeing to jointly ask the Commission to pull it back. But think long and hard about it, and consider this--can you believe the powerful message this would send regarding the importance of giving the sportsmen a meaningful voice and role?

If that were to happen, and even if it doesn't, I pledge to you on both sides of this issue that if asked, I will work my tail off to see that both sides work together and in good faith to see if we can't find some common ground. In my heart of hearts, I truly believe that's possible.

So yes, I am working to rescind the expansion. But my motive is NOT to keep sportsmen out of the field. My motive is to restore faith and credibilty. My motive is to see us once again working together instead of against one another. My motive is to see friendship replace rancor. My motive is to bring the sportmen and the department back to a position of mutual respect and trust. And I want to ensure that we stand for the principle that in these types of matters, we will have the opportunity to be heard and to find common ground so that folks do not feel left out of the process.

So that's where I stand. I ask each and every one of you, on both sides of this issue, to stand with me.

Good post and thanks.....I stand with you.

[LoweBow]

Mike whelan spoke, Walt spoke, Rick Hahn Spoke, all id as UBK members and all are officers of the club in one form or the the other. Walt is attempting to mislead us again for some reason. It's not working.
Multi.
I made it very clear to the Commission when I spoke that I "was" acting UBK Vice Prez., but if I remember correctly I told them that just like the letter I'd sent each and every one of them this was my opinion. I know for fact I made a point of letting them know that the letter I sent them was signed Mike W. and not UBK. So I'm out of this argument. I still only know of one official stance.
BTW .....glad to be back...Had a great trip and didnt' miss this stuff for a minute!!! :D

Oh...Great post Schuyler

[LoweBow]

Schuyler,

As I've often said, I don't have a dog in this fight, I don't bow hunt at all, period. However, as you might expect, I do have an opinion...I agree with gwhilikerz that I truly don't think xbows will have an ounce of impact on the resource (deer or turkey), but that is not the REAL issue here.

I have discussed this with Rick Hahn (Xtreme) and I will offer the same perception and advice here. The UBK have been their own worst enemy in this debate, and have alienated many of their fellow sportsmen with their blatant selfishness. Rick keeps saying that he feels there was something fishy with the vote, (and FWIW I agree) but when the UBK speaks, they only speak about the harm xbows will cause to their sport and how additional hunters will infringe on the bowhunters time afield. IMHO, this is a "loser" argument, but the unused argument about the mishandled vote is a clear "winner".

Therefore, I can support your proposal with good conscience. The way this issue was ramrodded through the commission could clearly come back to bite the sportsmen if we let it stand without opposition. It will be a bitter pill to swallow for the pro-xbow folks, but it is in the best interest of all sportsmen. If you are successful, it would also be in the best interest of the sportsmen, in general, and the UBK, in particular, if they would refrain from gloating should you be successful and get the vote rescinded. The UBK will need to be reminded that they didn't "win" anything...in reality they LOST...and it will be the efforts of their fellow sportsmen, acting in the best interests of ALL sportsmen, that will cause the rescission, and this issue will likely be revisited soon with ample opportunity for a full debate of the entire xbow issue.

IMHO, you are speaking with the "voice of reason" on a topic that has become "unreasonable". Good Luck and you can count on my support.

You know I agree w/ everything you've said. I've tried my best to keep my nose clean throughout this whole process for the best of the organization and for the sportsmen of Kentucky. Trust me I've had the same conversations w/ Rick and also talked to Rick about my resignation. I'm going to see this thing through and look at what direction I go when it is done. If the members or any directors don't like the way I've handled myself or the organization during this "process" let me know now or shut up. I'm fed up w/ the bitching and unconstructive badgering! It does noone any good. Opinions are fine, it's a free country, but when you throw UBK this or UBK that into it you WILL be labeled as to speaking for UBK! Knock it off! I've had it! If an official statement is to be presented one of the directors will do it and we will label it as so! That is what we were apointed to do.
Mike

[LoweBow]

Thats a "pill" that is to big to swallow since the ubk leadership has made this a personal issue!
Do you know who the "leadership" of UBK are?

[grouseguy]

You know I agree w/ everything you've said. I've tried my best to keep my nose clean throughout this whole process for the best of the organization and for the sportsmen of Kentucky. Trust me I've had the same conversations w/ Rick and also talked to Rick about my resignation. I'm going to see this thing through and look at what direction I go when it is done. If the members or any directors don't like the way I've handled myself or the organization during this "process" let me know now or shut up. I'm fed up w/ the bitching and unconstructive badgering! It does noone any good. Opinions are fine, it's a free country, but when you throw UBK this or UBK that into it you WILL be labeled as to speaking for UBK! Knock it off! I've had it! If an official statement is to be presented one of the directors will do it and we will label it as so! That is what we were apointed to do.
Mike

Mike,

Very well said. I know its difficult to be professional and reasonable when all around you is chaos. FWIW, I believe that you have represented your membership much better than many have represented themselves. While personally we may have different views on this issue, our respective organizations will continue to be allies, and you continue to have my respect for the way you represent yourself and your membership without alienating our fellow sportsmen.

Mark

[aceoky]

The way this issue was ramrodded through the commission could clearly come back to bite the sportsmen if we let it stand without opposition. It will be a bitter pill to swallow for the pro-xbow folks, but it is in the best interest of all sportsmen.
----------------------------------------------------------
Let me see if I understand the above quote? A study was done on this from 2002 -2005; yet it was "ramrodded"???

The survey was done and concluded (as did the biologists) that it would be a "good thing" for ALL;

With all due respect grouseguy; I fail to follow the logic: that "it would be good for all sportsmen" to change what has worked and well for decades; based on the "wants" of some organizations......

For example; some of the same people saying it was "rushed through"(or however each one puts it); YET the same people were asking for support more than a month prior to the "ramrodding"???

It simply can not be both ways; IF they knew about the vote weeks prior to it;(which they must have since they wanted it defeated???); then how was it "rushed/ramrodded" through?????

Again; I too "have no dog in this fight"; but it goes deeper than that: BUT in a different way IMHO; than what those not wanting it to remain say! The way this debate has been "handled"; has turned many into (well you get the idea); and I believe it's hurt the state and most likely the organization's standing in the vast amount of sportspeople's minds, all over another CHOICE of weapon!!

Whether anyone is for or against them; to start a "war" with other hunters can't help anyone; and to imply the Dept. is "using underhanded tactics" will certainly NOT make things better for us in the future IMHO...

[grouseguy]

aceoky,

With all due respect, you (and others) are still trying to make this out to be a "crossbow" issue, when the underlying issue has absolutely NOTHING to do with a crossbow or any other weapon. I think you're focusing on an individual "tree", and missing what's going on in the "forest".

FWIW, again, I personally have no problem with crossbows being legalized during the entire archery season...it is just a non-issue. However, to understand this issue, you will need to become informed about much of the history involving the KDFWR administration and the crossbow issue, and I don't have the time to get into that here and now.

This is simply my opinion, so take it FWIW...but I truly believe that this issue was floated out for a specific reason, and it had NOTHING to do with "CHOICE of weapon" or "expanded opportunities"...it was a smoke screen to divert attention from issues that were being uncovered within the KDFWR administration...and it has been DAMN effective, because he we are still discussing an issue that doesn't amount to a "pitcher of spit", while Tom Bennett rides off into "retirement" with a slap on the back and a Thank You for politicizing and mismanaging the KDFWR.

IMHO, you should take the time to get informed or listen to those that are.

You may now return to your off-topic petty bickering.

[Multidigits]

Ace--you have to look at the big picture. This battle for hunters rights is more than meets the eye. There's several facits of this fight as well. Some are simply against the crossbow for the traditional reasons. Some are not against the crossbow for any reason, but against other issues that got it here, such as the out going Commissioner or some sitting on the Commission. And some are against the process, even though it's the same process used for the past 50 years or more. But in the end, we'll win this fight for the right reasons, and because all those BAD people end up doing what's right for the sportsmen of the state. Then the naysayers will have a choice to make. :)

[aceoky]

Thank you grouseguy, you've made some valid points,and well spoken(not to mention planted some "seeds" of which I intent to nurture) :)

I however do not think I'm focusing on a single tree(cross-bows or any other); if you'll read my posts , you'll find most of them are about hunter unity(and in the above one as well) :) I'll stand behind my "stance" that if we do not hang together, surely we'll hang one by one....

IF there are other "real issues" to be addressed here; then I have to ask why instead of that being said(typed); we were told such things as "it's our season", the Dept didn't give US time to reply, etc. etc. From that point on; someonce CHOOSING a different(and I might add legal for now weapon) was labled as "lazy" "slob" (etc.etc. etc.) , and IF you'll notice that's when I decided to "chime in"...

Before those "attacks" , I decided, to stay out of it, it passed, didn't bother me, as you said a "non-issue"...Yet when we start to "fight" within our own ranks, and even more "label" a group of our own as such; then it's "the forest" that *I* see and get concerned with/about....

But what really "got my goat" (as it were) was when the "idea" of going to politicians to "change things".....IMHO that was going WAY too far(and I will add IMHO an idea that could endanger our entire way of life in the future!)

Respectfully I submit, that I did indeed try to see the entire forest, and based my posts on that and that alone; though I will admit having done a great deal of research into the x-bow, I couldn't see any "ill-effects" of them being used, despite the opinions of some which were posted herein. I also beleive that more hunters= better future for ALL hunters; and IF this helps that to happen, isn't that also a part of the entire forest?

The whole issue was more(to me) about how the opposistion handled it's posistion, and itself, and the tactics some were willing to go to just to "win"(and some would say at all cost).

IF somehow, my views/posts reflect anything other than that; I will now humbly apologize to anyone who felt that way, this has been much larger than ONE vote! It is about(again to me) OUR future, and those after us; that I feel the need to defend; no more or no less.

As for the "smokescreen" , I'll admit, I can't comment on that at this time, as I try to only post about what I'm "well up on" and without facts and data, I will not attempt to make any points, either way....

[gwhilikerz]

There might be a "Bigger Picture" that we need to address. But on April 22nd the "picture" is crossbows. This smaller vision of the picture as a whole is what needs to be focused on now. Get this one behind us and move on to another portion of the big picture. The xbow thing may well be a smoke screen, but it is here and needs to be dealt with. I don't know the first thing about the "politics", backroom, cloak and dagger, stuff that goes on with KDFWR. In fact sometimes I wonder if talking about such things is in itself a smoke screen to avoid the "little picture".

[grouseguy]

aceoky & gwhilikerz,

Good discussion. Hopefully, you understand that just because I have questions about the way this issue was raised and approved doesn't mean that I don't think the right decision was made. It is very complicated with a lot of history, which doesn't lend itself well to impersonal internet discussions.

Personally, I don't see how the commission can "put the toothpaste back in the tube" and reverse themselves. The hunting guides are being printed and its been announced in KY Afield - The Magazine, so I think crossbows will be legal and rightfully so. However, I do hope that there is sufficient pressure placed on the commission to force an investigation and report into "How and Why" this issue came to light and was approved NOW!!!

[grinder]

i went to a local archery store todayand they have xbows everywhere. no one was around so i got in a discussion with the owner. he said he normally sells 10 a year, he's sold ten this month! if this is appealed i guess there will be a few more handicap permits passed out. i got the impression it was gun and bowhunters buying them, not new hunters as some have suggested.

[aceoky]

aceoky & gwhilikerz,

Good discussion. Hopefully, you understand that just because I have questions about the way this issue was raised and approved doesn't mean that I don't think the right decision was made. It is very complicated with a lot of history, which doesn't lend itself well to impersonal internet discussions.

Personally, I don't see how the commission can "put the toothpaste back in the tube" and reverse themselves. The hunting guides are being printed and its been announced in KY Afield - The Magazine, so I think crossbows will be legal and rightfully so. However, I do hope that there is sufficient pressure placed on the commission to force an investigation and report into "How and Why" this issue came to light and was approved NOW!!!

Grouseguy; that's the way IMHO this discussion should have been handled: in a "civil way", instead of the things that have came forth from some who seem to be saying "the end justifies the means"; "whatever it takes" etc. I can't see in amputation of a leg to remove an "ingrown toenail" :D (an analogy of involving politicians and voters into the "mix" of our hunting regulations) :)

I personally fear much damage was done to our ranks from the insulting "labels" that were "spewed forth" without reason or provocation. (which was my reason for stating" all over another choice of weapon") .......("it's MY way or it's wrong") etc.

NOW we have the P&Y club(among others) wanting to "dictate" to US what we should use to hunt with or not hunt with(as in OUR regulations???) I see this as a very dangerous trend, it is their right to accept and decline entries into THEIR books as they see "fit", but policy isn't their business, nor IMHO should it become their "calling".

I hope when all of this is behind us; we can once again be united; after all there is nothing wrong to agree to disagree(in a "civil manner")

[aceoky]

i went to a local archery store todayand they have xbows everywhere. no one was around so i got in a discussion with the owner. he said he normally sells 10 a year, he's sold ten this month! if this is appealed i guess there will be a few more handicap permits passed out. i got the impression it was gun and bowhunters buying them, not new hunters as some have suggested.
-----------------------------------------------
Very interesting! I'd like to know how(and upon what) you "got the impression" (based on what numbers etc.)
It really doesn't matter anyway, since gun hunters would now be bowhunters? That's new "to them" isn't it? Who is to say that they won't then use another bow? Or introduce some kids to the sport now and later??? Or a spouse that couldn't draw and hold a bow? (and didn't like the blast of a rifle) :)

I'm confused(amused?) that bowhunters are buying the x-bow????

Anyway you "slice" it; those sales PROVE there will be more hunters in the woods more often; and I for one think that is a good thing!

[grinder]

-----------------------------------------------
Very interesting! I'd like to know how(and upon what) you "got the impression" (based on what numbers etc.)
It really doesn't matter anyway, since gun hunters would now be bowhunters? That's new "to them" isn't it? Who is to say that they won't then use another bow? Or introduce some kids to the sport now and later??? Or a spouse that couldn't draw and hold a bow? (and didn't like the blast of a rifle) :)

I'm confused(amused?) that bowhunters are buying the x-bow????

Anyway you "slice" it; those sales PROVE there will be more hunters in the woods more often; and I for one think that is a good thing!
i guess if you have plenty of private land to hunt its fine, but lots of guys are hunting public lands, and more crowds are not anything to cheer about. as someone posted earlier, and made the comment at the march meeting, "its gonna get to be where you will have to bring you're own tree to have one to hunt from!" exagerated of course, but comical. the wma's do get alot of pressure, especially weekends. if i thought all this would generate revenue for more WMA's i would not mind so much, but i'm doubtfull.

[Multidigits]

i went to a local archery store todayand they have xbows everywhere. no one was around so i got in a discussion with the owner. he said he normally sells 10 a year, he's sold ten this month! if this is appealed i guess there will be a few more handicap permits passed out. i got the impression it was gun and bowhunters buying them, not new hunters as some have suggested.

Thanks, I'll send that info in to Host's office. He should like the extra Commerce! :D

[Multidigits]

i guess if you have plenty of private land to hunt its fine, but lots of guys are hunting public lands, and more crowds are not anything to cheer about. as someone posted earlier, and made the comment at the march meeting, "its gonna get to be where you will have to bring you're own tree to have one to hunt from!" exagerated of course, but comical. the wma's do get alot of pressure, especially weekends. if i thought all this would generate revenue for more WMA's i would not mind so much, but i'm doubtfull.

We have the UBK talking smack about the great AIS program and how it's going to save hunting, yet one of it's directors don't want any new hunters added to the ranks.....strange wouldn't you say??? for years, we've been involved in trying to add hunters because of the decline, now we see this bunch against it.......more than strange??? :cool:

Added revenus, from crossbow sales goes in in the form of the P-R tax money. That money comes back tio the states for public hunting. Sales up several hundred precent means lots of it going in. That's good. :D

[grinder]

what happened to you're predictions of more hunters? from what this guy has seen, and yes, i know its early, its not creating more hunters, just converting a few. lets face it, if people don't hunt, its because they just don't care to hunt. its not because of weapon choice. i believe the main reason hunting is in decline is due to the fact that a lot more kids grow up in single parent homes(with moms vs. dads) and sony playstations are replacing BB guns , slingshots, and bow and arrows like my generation grew up with. we hunted and fished, they play video games and maybe participate in school sports. also more and more grow up in urban vs. rural environment.i honestly do not believe this x-bow season will increase license sales.l i hope you are right about the $$ $$, i just hope if it does generate state money, its put in the right place, like more land purchases, and not pissed away. we will see.

[gwhilikerz]

what happened to you're predictions of more hunters? from what this guy has seen, and yes, i know its early, its not creating more hunters, just converting a few. lets face it, if people don't hunt, its because they just don't care to hunt. its not because of weapon choice. i believe the main reason hunting is in decline is due to the fact that a lot more kids grow up in single parent homes(with moms vs. dads) and sony playstations are replacing BB guns , slingshots, and bow and arrows like my generation grew up with. we hunted and fished, they play video games and maybe participate in school sports. also more and more grow up in urban vs. rural environment.i honestly do not believe this x-bow season will increase license sales.l i hope you are right about the $$ $$, i just hope if it does generate state money, its put in the right place, like more land purchases, and not pissed away. we will see.
grinder this is getting very old. You say your dealer friend sold several crossbows. Then you took it upon yourself to ASSume that these buyers were gun hunters or bowhunters and not new hunters. If they were new then there goes your theory down the drain. So do we believe another of your ASSumptions? Or do you have a "document"? Or maybe we should wait for some real stats to come in on the increase/decrease in hunters? I know! Have your dealer bud take a survey! No wait! That won't work. You don't believe surveys. Guess we will just have to agree with your ASSumptions. NOT!

[Multidigits]

what happened to you're predictions of more hunters? from what this guy has seen, and yes, i know its early, its not creating more hunters, just converting a few. lets face it, if people don't hunt, its because they just don't care to hunt. its not because of weapon choice. i believe the main reason hunting is in decline is due to the fact that a lot more kids grow up in single parent homes(with moms vs. dads) and sony playstations are replacing BB guns , slingshots, and bow and arrows like my generation grew up with. we hunted and fished, they play video games and maybe participate in school sports. also more and more grow up in urban vs. rural environment.i honestly do not believe this x-bow season will increase license sales.l i hope you are right about the $$ $$, i just hope if it does generate state money, its put in the right place, like more land purchases, and not pissed away. we will see.

grinder, you really need to get over the fact that you've lost the battle, and soon will lose the war. The wagons are circled and the bullets are running low. The Injuns still have plenty of arrows. It'll be scalp city soon.

The facts are that crossbow sales are up statewide. Proof is easy to verify from the states number one distributor of archery equipment supplies. some of those are and will be new hunters, some are hunters retained, and some are hunters who rejoined the ranks. It doesn't matter where they come from, as long as they come. It proves the commission did the right thing for the whole. A majority wanted this change and the early crossbow sales prove it. The same thing happen in other states, and we told you it would. Now you can bitch because we have more hunters.....see what that gets you?

The decline in hunters is because of many reasons, number one is the family farms are disappearing and familys are more urban now than before. People have lost contact with the outdoors. This is the first postive improvement we've seen in years. Seems your group would embrace the growth instead of poopooing it, but that's not possible for them. So be it, we'll just enjoy the growth and watch your side continue to shrink. After all, you made your bed, now you have to lay in it.

[grinder]

grinder, you really need to get over the fact that you've lost the battle, and soon will lose the war. The wagons are circled and the bullets are running low. The Injuns still have plenty of arrows. It'll be scalp city soon.

The facts are that crossbow sales are up statewide. Proof is easy to verify from the states number one distributor of archery equipment supplies. some of those are and will be new hunters, some are hunters retained, and some are hunters who rejoined the ranks. It doesn't matter where they come from, as long as they come. It proves the commission did the right thing for the whole. A majority wanted this change and the early crossbow sales prove it. The same thing happen in other states, and we told you it would. Now you can bitch because we have more hunters.....see what that gets you?

The decline in hunters is because of many reasons, number one is the family farms are disappearing and familys are more urban now than before. People have lost contact with the outdoors. This is the first postive improvement we've seen in years. Seems your group would embrace the growth instead of poopooing it, but that's not possible for them. So be it, we'll just enjoy the growth and watch your side continue to shrink. After all, you made your bed, now you have to lay in it.
"made my bed and lay in it" "lost the war" i don't understand you man. just because i have a different opinion, different values, and different hunting techniques. grow up. you talk about whiners, listen to your'e self.

[grinder]

grinder this is getting very old. You say your dealer friend sold several crossbows. Then you took it upon yourself to ASSume that these buyers were gun hunters or bowhunters and not new hunters. If they were new then there goes your theory down the drain. So do we believe another of your ASSumptions? Or do you have a "document"? Or maybe we should wait for some real stats to come in on the increase/decrease in hunters? I know! Have your dealer bud take a survey! No wait! That won't work. You don't believe surveys. Guess we will just have to agree with your ASSumptions. NOT!
i'm sorry, i just can't believe that anywhere there is going to be a guy that has never hunted, all the sudden say "hey, you can hunt with a crossbow now, thats what i've always been waiting on" get real. i'm just trying to debunk this "creating more hunters" theory. its not going to sell more license, its not needed to harvest more deer, its simply being pushed by a few because they can sell more gadget equipment for more easy bucks. $$$$ talking. anyone unable to pull a bow can allready hunt with a x-bow. and there is concerns about turkey overharvest,(even the shop owner professed to that and he was in favor of x-bows, why not? his sales grew ten fold $$$) and no one can deny not having to draw the x-bow is going to greatly improve the odds of killing a turkey. i know these are the same arguments were all tired of hearing, but the same tripe comes from the pro x-bow side, so i'll sling it right back.

[shogan]

actually last year I gave up traditional archery due to my short comings and am so excited that I will again buy a sportsmans license. And I have spoken to others that like me cant find a place to gun hunt but can archery hunt but don't feel a bow is adeqaute given or capabilities. Another man just like myself and guess what he is getting a crossbow just like me. And he also put down his inline bow in the past.

I think the survey hit it on the head there is a small group that adimentely oppose a slightly larger group that adimentely supports and those in the middle with more on the I don't care support then the I don't care dont suppport. Like it or not you are out numbered. And this board reflects almost the same percentage.

[grinder]

good post shogan. refreshing to read a civilized post.i guess i'm just a cantankerous fart that hates changes, and hates politics even more. i'm really not passionet enough about the subject to go to extremes like some.i hunt with what i hunt with because i enjoy it the most, not because it insures success, but I DO RESPECT those that hunt with any legal weapon n an ethical manner. guns have their place as the vital management tool, even though i dread the flurry of activity and "wired deer" that are the end result. muzzleloaders have the 2nd big advantage as a management tool and i always said if for some reason i was incapable of bowhunting that would be my choice. compounds are the king of bowseason and still will be if the x-bow law makes it( and i'd say it will)but they always seemed too technical and quircky for me. crossbows.., yeah they need to be there too and i would have been fine with extending the season, but thought the whole season was a bit much. the last few weeks i have been experiencing some bad pain in my left elbow that shooting my bow only aggravates. who knows, someday i might be x-bowhunting ! but only as a last resort. my biggest peeve is some that jump you with gnashing fangs if you post anything but high praise for x-bows. "opinions are like..," well you know the saying"everybody has one"

[gwhilikerz]

Did anybody notice a change in "wind" direction?

[grinder]

check all my past posts.i can't help what you think of me.you can read into it whatever you want, and you want bad.

[gwhilikerz]

Can't help it grinder, I'm a grouchy Son Of Bertha. Tell you what tho, this debate has worn on me till I am losing interest in the things that used to matter to me. I'm feeling mellow tonight, so let's be among the first to bury the hatchet. Life is too short to get this heated over a hunting tool.

[grinder]

amen, tell you what, you take that $#@% xbow and kill a deer, i'll help you gut it, drag it, and eat it !! then you can call me anything you want.LOL!

[shogan]

Now were talking like brotheres of hunting.

[aceoky]

i'm sorry, i just can't believe that anywhere there is going to be a guy that has never hunted, all the sudden say "hey, you can hunt with a crossbow now, thats what i've always been waiting on" get real. i'm just trying to debunk this "creating more hunters" theory. its not going to sell more license, its not needed to harvest more deer, its simply being pushed by a few because they can sell more gadget equipment for more easy bucks. $$$$ talking. anyone unable to pull a bow can allready hunt with a x-bow. and there is concerns about turkey overharvest,(even the shop owner professed to that and he was in favor of x-bows, why not? his sales grew ten fold $$$) and no one can deny not having to draw the x-bow is going to greatly improve the odds of killing a turkey. i know these are the same arguments were all tired of hearing, but the same tripe comes from the pro x-bow side, so i'll sling it right back.

OK let's first examine the "more hunters theory". It's easy to assume that KY has a 3 week gun season, but it doesn't! Check zones 3-4, and you'll notice that it isn't as long; and if you'll look you'll also see that any "bonus doe" have to be taken with archery! When you factor those in with work(and other responsibilities); it's easy to see why some would like to hunt; but because of restraints; they can't see the need to spend the $$$ for a couple of days; NOW think about the entire archery season; that's a bit different isn't it????

Also being "unable to draw" a bow in and of itself, didn't qualify one to use a crossbow; they had to be thus due to a "medical reason"(and a doctor had to sign to that effect"???

Also factor in the female, and younger hunters that can't hold a "hunting weight" bow, and guess what? There is a huge potential for "new hunters", and more bow hunters that only hunted gun and perhaps ML seasons prior to this. To "reason" or "assume" it isn't going to happen; only is a refusal to look at the many reasons(some posted above) that WILL cause more hunters(and yes I dare say "new hunters") :D

After reading the facts; IF you can really believe(especially in zones 3-4) that more tags will not be sold; then you're "living in a fantasy world" I've already seen what is taking place here; and people are excited to be able to hunt more and with a weapon they CAN use! Watch the "bonus tags" sold in those zones in particular; in that will you see more tag sales; more hunters; etc.

How's that for "slinging it back"??

:D

[grinder]

well slung!! i guess right now its just opinions, time will tell. me and a buddy went turkey hunting this morning with our recurves. we talked in depth about it during the hour drive to the hunt. whatever happens happens,and i'm not going to cry either way. happy hunting!

[jdixon]

I am not a bow hunter but, I have been watching this cross bow debate with interest. My particular flare is traditional muzzleloader hunting and I believe there is a comparison between the two. That comparison is this; How much more of an advantage does the cross-bow hunter take to the field with his equipment compared to th ecompound bow hunter? Maybe some, but as I understand it the effective ranges on these two types of instruments is essentially the same. It is going to take a lot of skill and time to take deer with either one.

Now, lets flip over to the muzzleloader hunter for comparison. How much of an advantage does the in-line scoped muzzleloader hunter take to the field with his equipment over the traditional side lock iron site weapon? I can tell you, a lot. Easily, with practice the in-line muzzleloader w/ scope can reach out double, almost triple the distance of a traditional style m/z weapon. Years ago when muzzleloader seasons were first brought in, the wildlife management people arranged the seasons with the the traditional style weapon w/ a 100 yrd. range max. for deer in mind. As time went along the in-lines evolve into a firearm capable of 200 yrds+ shoots. Today, far more m/z deer are taken with modern in-lines than the traditional side lock guns.

My point here is this; the in-line muzzleloader is a vastly superior firearm when compared to the tradtional side lock gun. The cross-bow on the other hand has only a marginal design advantage over the compound bow. If deer hunting in this state survived, and in fact thrived since and during the modern in-line muzzleloader's arrival on the scene, I can not see where the deployment of more cross-bows for longer hunting seasons is going to have any negative effect at all, in fact I would argue just the opposite. As a percentage, fewer and fewer Americans take to the field each year to hunt. The longer we can keep the interest in our sport up by doing things such as an extended cross-bow season, the better off we will all be.