Broken promise.

[Xtreme]

Multi sent me a message the other day asking me to stay from from this site. It's obvious he was not wanting to play verbal chess with someone his equal:D

I must however break my promise to offer these thoughts.

Why do we fear each others weapons and seasons. It's quite elementary as a crowded woods is indeed percieved to be a very un productive woods. Yet, to survive as hunters we MUST have strength in numbers. Quite an irony ...agreed?

Myself personally I am a devout bowhunter. Why you would ask? My main reason is that I have a job that allows me to spend a lot of time in the woods in the winter months. The second reason is that when I was a young man I was a semi professional trapper. Suffice it to say I have been blessed with being very close to critters all my conscious life.

Given this fact it would be obvious that I would defend a sport that requires a great deal of time spent afield for the few chances to get close to my quarry.

However, I will admit that I am and have been blessed in my lifetime. I was raised in wide open spaces[for Kentucky standards]. I fear crowded woods and fields but at the same time I do all I can to protect and promote my fellow brothers and sisters going afield, another irony I fear.

Am I elite? No my friends quite the contrary. I have been blessed with a life that has allowed me to take a few high roads. Roads that require nothing special other than the chance to utilize and time to learn and enjoy.

Now then, will cross bows effect where I hunt at present? Probably not. I hunt mostly private and access controlled land at present.

What will happen to our public land if anymore pressure is applied? This is not a critiscism but a question. What will be the answer? What will we do if the NASP program succeeds our wildest imaginations and hundreds of kids want to find a place to bow hunt in the near future? Many questions apply here.

Time is a very prescious gift. Some of us have many gifts and some have little.

A lucky bowhunter has a little time to spare to pursue game up close with limited interuptions. Many of our brothers have precious little time but cherish the up close game as well.

Time, and space to apply our passions is our worries and thus creates our frictions.

We must find common ground for the sake of us all.

[Multidigits]

Yep, no doubt we need more and better public lands. But that's a completely separate issue, and one the crossbow didn't cause or will make better or worse. Our game dept. has appealed to the masses to come to Ky. and hunt the happy hunting ground. They even have a marketing director to get more deer and turkey hunters. Was there an outcry about the lack of public hunting when this came about earlier in the year. Nope, wasn't even an eyebrow lifted by ht eUBK or any other group or individual. Yet the mention of the crossbow and we hear from the elitists. You can come and hunt, but not with a crossbow. What differnce does the weapon make? A person takes up one spot weather he's hunting with a gun, a bow or a crossbow.

[Kansas]

Xtreme,
Very well said. Your point is well taken and needs to be heard. On the flip side, one can't wish for your personal needs at the expense of letting others enjoy the exact same thing you are defending and trying to protect. We have to share the outdoors, in ALL seasons to allow for the continued use of the resource and to pass down the traditions of hunting.

[Xtreme]

Yep, no doubt we need more and better public lands. But that's a completely separate issue, and one the crossbow didn't cause or will make better or worse. Our game dept. has appealed to the masses to come to Ky. and hunt the happy hunting ground. They even have a marketing director to get more deer and turkey hunters. Was there an outcry about the lack of public hunting when this came about earlier in the year. Nope, wasn't even an eyebrow lifted by ht eUBK or any other group or individual. Yet the mention of the crossbow and we hear from the elitists. You can come and hunt, but not with a crossbow. What differnce does the weapon make? A person takes up one spot weather he's hunting with a gun, a bow or a crossbow.

I will agree with most of your post other than I for one have lifted an eyebrow about public hunting for a long time.

Although I am not the ruling authority of the UBK I am and have been a director for quite some time.

What else can I say:confused:

[Multidigits]

I will agree with most of your post other than I for one have lifted an eyebrow about public hunting for a long time.

Although I am not the ruling authority of the UBK I am and have been a director for quite some time.

What else can I say:confused:

Sure you have, but not when the Dept. anounced that they had hired a marketing director. What did you do then? Nothing, same as the rest of us.

Nobody made an issue out of public hunting then, or lack of it. Some, like Sky even praised the hiring as a good move. You think the purpose was to sell trinkets at the game farm gift shop?

Now it's an issue even though there is no evidence that the choice of weapon will make any differnece in numbers. Least that what your firends are syaing on the increase in license sales. Get you story straight. Is it going to increase hunter numbers or not???

As a director, you and Dale both can be considered spokesmen for the UBK, and are. I will say your a lot better at it than is the director from the 3rd. But at this point, it doesn't matter to me if he shoots his foot off, In fact, I'm kinda liking it.

[Xtreme]

Sure you have, but not when the Dept. anounced that they had hired a marketing director. What did you do then? Nothing, same as the rest of us.

Nobody made an issue out of public hunting then, or lack of it. Some, like Sky even praised the hiring as a good move. You think the purpose was to sell trinkets at the game farm gift shop?

Now it's an issue even though there is no evidence that the choice of weapon will make any differnece in numbers. Least that what your firends are syaing on the increase in license sales. Get you story straight. Is it going to increase hunter numbers or not???

As a director, you and Dale both can be considered spokesmen for the UBK, and are. I will say your a lot better at it than is the director from the 3rd. But at this point, it doesn't matter to me if he shoots his foot off, In fact, I'm kinda liking it.

As far as I know I have had my story straight in predicting hunter numbers in Kentucky WILL increase. My point is they will increase where we as a state can't easoly handle them......WMA's.

I know, go back into cyberspace X!......anyway....did you go to the doctor today?

[gwhilikerz]

XTreme i am a little curious about something you said in your well thought out post. You said you had opportunites to take the high road? I take it you are talking about your hunting life and are referring to bowhunting in particular. I think I took a similar path to yours. I've been bowhunting since 1964 or there abouts. I have and do belong to several local and national archery organizations. I said our paths were similar, but I don't remember it being so high. The fact that we choose to bowhunt does not make me or you one iotta better than the gun hunter or the xbow hunter. Unless we own the land in question we have no more right to be there at a certain time than anyone else. We danged well better learn to share what we have with ALL hunters or we will have nothing. In the long run that old saying is true: The more you give the more you have. If we want future generations of hunters to even have a place to hunt we better stop all these "high road, elitist, my way only" attitudes. If we don't hunting may well be something we can only tell our grandkids about.

[Xtreme]

XTreme i am a little curious about something you said in your well thought out post. You said you had opportunites to take the high road? I take it you are talking about your hunting life and are referring to bowhunting in particular. I think I took a similar path to yours. I've been bowhunting since 1964 or there abouts. I have and do belong to several local and national archery organizations. I said our paths were similar, but I don't remember it being so high. The fact that we choose to bowhunt does not make me or you one iotta better than the gun hunter or the xbow hunter. Unless we own the land in question we have no more right to be there at a certain time than anyone else. We danged well better learn to share what we have with ALL hunters or we will have nothing. In the long run that old saying is true: The more you give the more you have. If we want future generations of hunters to even have a place to hunt we better stop all these "high road, elitist, my way only" attitudes. If we don't hunting may well be something we can only tell our grandkids about.

So what is your point? You just answered my question with the same answer I gave.:eek: :confused:

[maxcam]

Ive read in several threads that there will be no negative effect from the PROPOSED crossbow season. Who says? I have talked to former Commisioner Bennet, Commissioner Gailore, and several of the biology staff and asked them just how many crossbow hunters will take advantage of an extended season. The answer I got is ........"we're not sure......" So tell me who knows how many deer or turkey will be taken ? How many bucks, does toms, jakes, or hens? still no one knows.....So I asked how can this be? No one knows who or what is taken but they are sure what the impact will be. Let me tell you what I know. If the number of deer and or tukey harvested puts undo pressure on the resourse who will be asked to conceed......"we're not sure"..........
BULLS4!T.........
These are the facts......2 percent of all Tag sells currently in Ky are from crossbow hunters period. This number is constant since the dept allowed crossbows in the field, even after adding additional days in the field in November. In Ohio the number is 53 percent of archery tags and their season is not as liberal as the one "PROPOSED" by the dept., which by the way, if allowed to pass will be the most liberal in the nation. That means by looking at the numbers in a few years if we follow Ohio as the model, ( which is the one that the biologists for the KDFW used) there will be approximately 50,000 crossbow hunters in Kentucky.

And that my friends is what BULLS4!T smells like.

[turk2di]

Multi sent me a message the other day asking me to stay from from this site. It's obvious he was not wanting to play verbal chess with someone his equal:D

I must however break my promise to offer these thoughts.

Why do we fear each others weapons and seasons. It's quite elementary as a crowded woods is indeed percieved to be a very un productive woods. Yet, to survive as hunters we MUST have strength in numbers. Quite an irony ...agreed?

Myself personally I am a devout bowhunter. Why you would ask? My main reason is that I have a job that allows me to spend a lot of time in the woods in the winter months. The second reason is that when I was a young man I was a semi professional trapper. Suffice it to say I have been blessed with being very close to critters all my conscious life.

Given this fact it would be obvious that I would defend a sport that requires a great deal of time spent afield for the few chances to get close to my quarry.

However, I will admit that I am and have been blessed in my lifetime. I was raised in wide open spaces[for Kentucky standards]. I fear crowded woods and fields but at the same time I do all I can to protect and promote my fellow brothers and sisters going afield, another irony I fear.

Am I elite? No my friends quite the contrary. I have been blessed with a life that has allowed me to take a few high roads. Roads that require nothing special other than the chance to utilize and time to learn and enjoy.

Now then, will cross bows effect where I hunt at present? Probably not. I hunt mostly private and access controlled land at present.

What will happen to our public land if anymore pressure is applied? This is not a critiscism but a question. What will be the answer? What will we do if the NASP program succeeds our wildest imaginations and hundreds of kids want to find a place to bow hunt in the near future? Many questions apply here.

Time is a very prescious gift. Some of us have many gifts and some have little.

A lucky bowhunter has a little time to spare to pursue game up close with limited interuptions. Many of our brothers have precious little time but cherish the up close game as well.

Time, and space to apply our passions is our worries and thus creates our frictions.

We must find common ground for the sake of us all.
There is a difference between an " elitist" and a "realist"! I subscribe to many of your thoughts. In order for hunting to survive, we need more hunters, yet more hunters crowd the woods and discourage both new hunters and long time hunters. Hunting is dying a very slow death. Which hand grips the neck that's choking the life out of hunting? The one where hunters numbers are dropping, or the one where huntable land is being chewed up by a migration to the country that has speeded up over the past ten years, takin out woodlot after woodlot, rendering many acres around it unhuntable? Didn't mean to segway from your thoughts, but it's a fact we need to realize with urgency. Land aquisition is a MUST until no more land is left to aquire! Peabody continues to flitter away in particles. Other lands are out there somewhere we can latch onto! But only by being united can we move foreward. As for the x-bow, my main concern in it's use involved the turkey. To many turks are getting away crippled and i feel the x-bow will only increase this possibility. We will see!

[Multidigits]

Ive read in several threads that there will be no negative effect from the PROPOSED crossbow season. Who says? I have talked to former Commisioner Bennet, Commissioner Gailore, and several of the biology staff and asked them just how many crossbow hunters will take advantage of an extended season. The answer I got is ........"we're not sure......" So tell me who knows how many deer or turkey will be taken ? How many bucks, does toms, jakes, or hens? still no one knows.....So I asked how can this be? No one knows who or what is taken but they are sure what the impact will be. Let me tell you what I know. If the number of deer and or tukey harvested puts undo pressure on the resourse who will be asked to conceed......"we're not sure"..........
BULLS4!T.........
These are the facts......2 percent of all Tag sells currently in Ky are from crossbow hunters period. This number is constant since the dept allowed crossbows in the field, even after adding additional days in the field in November. In Ohio the number is 53 percent of archery tags and their season is not as liberal as the one "PROPOSED" by the dept., which by the way, if allowed to pass will be the most liberal in the nation. That means by looking at the numbers in a few years if we follow Ohio as the model, ( which is the one that the biologists for the KDFW used) there will be approximately 50,000 crossbow hunters in Kentucky.

And that my friends is what BULLS4!T smells like.

The FACTS are that crossbow hunters average the same success rates as do conventional bowhunters. UNLESS there is a huge influx of new hunters, the harvest will be the same as before, only the particular weaponused will change. We've been told by the anti-hunters that the influx will come from those already hunting with a bow? we doubt that's true and do expect some growth. There's no way to track crossbow hunters now, as tag sales are not weapon specific. Can't be done....that is fact. surveys can be used, but the antis say they are wrong. One thing for sure, there are very few crossbow hunters now in Ky. That will change and weneed the growth to stem the deer herd and the growing turkey flock. Plus more money is not a bad thing.

As for pressure on the resourse, there comes a time when the untrained need to rely on the trained--that's the biologists in this case. Both have said the effect on the resourse is slight and can easily be handled by this change. That is the facts, like them or not.

[joekat46]

Ive read in several threads that there will be no negative effect from the PROPOSED crossbow season. Who says? I have talked to former Commisioner Bennet, Commissioner Gailore, and several of the biology staff and asked them just how many crossbow hunters will take advantage of an extended season. The answer I got is ........"we're not sure......" So tell me who knows how many deer or turkey will be taken ? How many bucks, does toms, jakes, or hens? still no one knows.....So I asked how can this be? No one knows who or what is taken but they are sure what the impact will be. Let me tell you what I know. If the number of deer and or tukey harvested puts undo pressure on the resourse who will be asked to conceed......"we're not sure"..........
BULLS4!T.........
These are the facts......2 percent of all Tag sells currently in Ky are from crossbow hunters period. This number is constant since the dept allowed crossbows in the field, even after adding additional days in the field in November. In Ohio the number is 53 percent of archery tags and their season is not as liberal as the one "PROPOSED" by the dept., which by the way, if allowed to pass will be the most liberal in the nation. That means by looking at the numbers in a few years if we follow Ohio as the model, ( which is the one that the biologists for the KDFW used) there will be approximately 50,000 crossbow hunters in Kentucky.

And that my friends is what BULLS4!T smells like.

I KNOW Ohio. You can make statistics say anything. The 53 percent of archery tags (Ohio DOESN'T have archery deer tags - just deer tags - OOPS for your team) that are allegedly crossbow hunters are mostly guys that would be out there anyway with a 80% reduced compound if the crossbow wasn't legal. Almost every guy I hunt with every year up in Ohio has now switched to the crossbow (some use both depending on how their arthritis is kicking up) because at our age (all approaching or over 60) it is the better choice. Just as a new thought - I can't remember the last time I went on an all day or night tracking job in Ohio to try and find a crossbow shot deer. Maybe that extra "crossbow edge" will actually reduce the number of unrecovered deer and the actual herd numbers will remain the same (really IMNSHO no "maybe" about it - the crossbow will reduce bad hits). It isn't a big herd reduction tool but does serve to keep some old timers in the game. Kentucky won't have an additional 50,000 hunters. Kentucky will have maybe 40,000 in state guys switch over to the crossbow and get a few more of the dreaded out of staters (that you can easily price out). I'm betting the guys who make the rules realize this and do know what BS smells like.
Ohio does sell archery turkey tags - the harm to the fall flock by the crossbowers has so far been none existent. Ohio is a state that only allows one fall bird so it doesn't add credence to either sides argument. I've repeated several times that I do feel KYs total of 4 possible birds during the fall is about 2 too many. Two birds, either bow or gun, would seem more reasonable.

[Willie]

The FACTS are that crossbow hunters average the same success rates as do conventional bowhunters. UNLESS there is a huge influx of new hunters, the harvest will be the same as before, only the particular weaponused will change. We've been told by the anti-hunters that the influx will come from those already hunting with a bow? we doubt that's true and do expect some growth. .

Off the top of my head I think in the deer hunter rich state of Georgia they had an increase of about 9,400 in archery hunting. 3,000 of those "new archers"" were using vertical bows. So the crossbow helped get some vertical bowhunter in the game too.

The stats show that the crossbow and verrical bow success rates are identical.

[gwhilikerz]

Ive read in several threads that there will be no negative effect from the PROPOSED crossbow season. Who says? I have talked to former Commisioner Bennet, Commissioner Gailore, and several of the biology staff and asked them just how many crossbow hunters will take advantage of an extended season. The answer I got is ........"we're not sure......" So tell me who knows how many deer or turkey will be taken ? How many bucks, does toms, jakes, or hens? still no one knows.....So I asked how can this be? No one knows who or what is taken but they are sure what the impact will be. Let me tell you what I know. If the number of deer and or tukey harvested puts undo pressure on the resourse who will be asked to conceed......"we're not sure"..........
BULLS4!T.........
These are the facts......2 percent of all Tag sells currently in Ky are from crossbow hunters period. This number is constant since the dept allowed crossbows in the field, even after adding additional days in the field in November. In Ohio the number is 53 percent of archery tags and their season is not as liberal as the one "PROPOSED" by the dept., which by the way, if allowed to pass will be the most liberal in the nation. That means by looking at the numbers in a few years if we follow Ohio as the model, ( which is the one that the biologists for the KDFW used) there will be approximately 50,000 crossbow hunters in Kentucky.

And that my friends is what BULLS4!T smells like.
The Sky is falling! The sky is falling! How many deer are there in Ohio? How many were there when xbows came into the picture? What is the result of all those xbows in the woods? How many of those xbow hunters were new to deer hunting and not "transfers" from another weapon?

[Multidigits]

Several thoughts come to mind here. First for Turk. I know Turks a good fellow. He's got grave concerns about Peabody WMA, as do some of the others. I'm concerned with it, even though I've never hunted there nary a day. we need longer than a 30 day out clause in the contract. We need to lease it insteasd of just use it. We need to follow the example they are using in Eastern Ky. on the strip jobs and barter something for something. It might be tax incentives or elk tags, but we need to strengthen what we have. That said, I've seen where Turk has been on an Indiana site giving advice on Peabody. Something tells me that he's not against more hunters coming in, and is willing to share what he has left. That shows he's a realist, not an elitist. His involvement with the LKs shows he's ready to serve for a while. And WE need his help. It's had to egt involved with predjudices holding onto you hand. So I think Turks in the right mode for now. We need to work together to improve what we have in regards to public land, not seek ways to limit their use.

NOW, for my friend Xtreme--I'll offer you a compromise. We can't agree on everything, but we can agree that more is better when it comes to hunters and dollars. You have hopes that the AIS project will increase hunters numbers, yet you want to limit hunter numbers by discriminating against the crossbow????? Why do you care where the new hunters come from, as long as they come? If we can agree that new hunters are good, and that we need the growth, the we can agree that the crossbow change is a good thing, not a bad thing, because you've said that it will increase participation?

Here's a compromise--you help support the crossbow change among your peers, WE'LL work with you to improve and increase public hunting areas. AS acting president of the new UCBK, we'll make a donation to the LKS Habitat Endowment Fund. We lobby the new Commissioner to turn loose some of the excess funds to buy or make better what we have now on public lands. We'll work together to increase awareness that what we have can not be taken for granted and we could be left with nearly nothing. We'll work with KYDFWR to find new lands and find a way to buy them.

If that's not enough, we can look at other states and the programs they use to find and increase public hunting oppurtunities, such as walk-in access programs. We can work together to draft regulation changes to keep WMAs for our residents first and then for the NR hunters to use whats left. We can look at fees to keep WMA self sustaining and make all the funds site specific. Where if a WMA gets a lot of use, it's gets the money to increase the habitat potential. Lots of possibilities, lots of options, none that we can't do IF we work on the problems, not possible problems.

Anyway, we need to get pass this appeal and try to get back to the basics.

Gone fishing. Bye.

[globemountain]

I KNOW Ohio. You can make statistics say anything. The 53 percent of archery tags (Ohio DOESN'T have archery deer tags - just deer tags - OOPS for your team) that are allegedly crossbow hunters are mostly guys that would be out there anyway with a 80% reduced compound if the crossbow wasn't legal. Almost every guy I hunt with every year up in Ohio has now switched to the crossbow (some use both depending on how their arthritis is kicking up) because at our age (all approaching or over 60) it is the better choice. Just as a new thought - I can't remember the last time I went on an all day or night tracking job in Ohio to try and find a crossbow shot deer. Maybe that extra "crossbow edge" will actually reduce the number of unrecovered deer and the actual herd numbers will remain the same (really IMNSHO no "maybe" about it - the crossbow will reduce bad hits). It isn't a big herd reduction tool but does serve to keep some old timers in the game. Kentucky won't have an additional 50,000 hunters. Kentucky will have maybe 40,000 in state guys switch over to the crossbow and get a few more of the dreaded out of staters (that you can easily price out). I'm betting the guys who make the rules realize this and do know what BS smells like.
Ohio does sell archery turkey tags - the harm to the fall flock by the crossbowers has so far been none existent. Ohio is a state that only allows one fall bird so it doesn't add credence to either sides argument. I've repeated several times that I do feel KYs total of 4 possible birds during the fall is about 2 too many. Two birds, either bow or gun, would seem more reasonable.Well stated Joekat46.......
Folks, Like it or not, crossbows seasons are going to expand into the archery season in more and more states. That is fine with me. I have an Excalibur Exocet hanging beside my 2 Mathews bows! I am a deer and turkey hunter, not just a bow hunter. To me the crossbow is just another weapon to hunt with. Now I have more options for hunting this fall. I have hunted with a bow for almost 20 years. I have had a crossbow for almost 10 years. My Mathews bows have 80% letoff, they are super quiet, they are very fast, and I shoot them with a release aid. In light of that, the argument against crossbows is meritless.

[simon kenton]

Globe, I am just curious. With your weapon option. How do you choose which one to hunt with and under what conditions?

[Xtreme]

Several thoughts come to mind here. First for Turk. I know Turks a good fellow. He's got grave concerns about Peabody WMA, as do some of the others. I'm concerned with it, even though I've never hunted there nary a day. we need longer than a 30 day out clause in the contract. We need to lease it insteasd of just use it. We need to follow the example they are using in Eastern Ky. on the strip jobs and barter something for something. It might be tax incentives or elk tags, but we need to strengthen what we have. That said, I've seen where Turk has been on an Indiana site giving advice on Peabody. Something tells me that he's not against more hunters coming in, and is willing to share what he has left. That shows he's a realist, not an elitist. His involvement with the LKs shows he's ready to serve for a while. And WE need his help. It's had to egt involved with predjudices holding onto you hand. So I think Turks in the right mode for now. We need to work together to improve what we have in regards to public land, not seek ways to limit their use.

NOW, for my friend Xtreme--I'll offer you a compromise. We can't agree on everything, but we can agree that more is better when it comes to hunters and dollars. You have hopes that the AIS project will increase hunters numbers, yet you want to limit hunter numbers by discriminating against the crossbow????? Why do you care where the new hunters come from, as long as they come? If we can agree that new hunters are good, and that we need the growth, the we can agree that the crossbow change is a good thing, not a bad thing, because you've said that it will increase participation?

Here's a compromise--you help support the crossbow change among your peers, WE'LL work with you to improve and increase public hunting areas. AS acting president of the new UCBK, we'll make a donation to the LKS Habitat Endowment Fund. We lobby the new Commissioner to turn loose some of the excess funds to buy or make better what we have now on public lands. We'll work together to increase awareness that what we have can not be taken for granted and we could be left with nearly nothing. We'll work with KYDFWR to find new lands and find a way to buy them.

If that's not enough, we can look at other states and the programs they use to find and increase public hunting oppurtunities, such as walk-in access programs. We can work together to draft regulation changes to keep WMAs for our residents first and then for the NR hunters to use whats left. We can look at fees to keep WMA self sustaining and make all the funds site specific. Where if a WMA gets a lot of use, it's gets the money to increase the habitat potential. Lots of possibilities, lots of options, none that we can't do IF we work on the problems, not possible problems.

Anyway, we need to get pass this appeal and try to get back to the basics.

Gone fishing. Bye.

Now you are talking my old controversial cyberspace hero/villain/friend:D

If you will go back to some of my posts involving the NASP program you will see where I asked the very well thought out question[in my opinion].

"This is the best thing since the invention of the compound bow, now where are we going to put these kids when they want to hunt"?:eek:

Remember this post? It's the same with xbows adding numbers on public land.

I'm with ya. If you want to tackle the issue of more public land and better habitat management I'll even join the united x bowers. Lead, follow or get out of the way is my motto:eek:

I have some problems as you well know in regards to how this last xbow issue was handled. Nuff said there. If we get past this un fortunate road block and actually get to set down like mature adults and hammer some things out I feel that you and I will agree far more than we disagree.

Hell, I'm a member of more outdoor clubs than I can count and one more will not kill me. That and given the fact willikerz will need some one to keep him straight is a challenge I look forward to.

Call me when you get home and tell me how the fish are doing. I plan to go next weekend.

[gwhilikerz]

Xtreme I don't know you and I don't know multi. Heck I don't think I know anyone on here personally. But what I do know is we all care about hunting. Let's agree right here that no matter how this xbow thing comes out that we and our respective organizations can and will come together to find and promote more hunting opportunites in KY. That means more funding for WMA's, more available land for hunting, habitat improvement for all game and non game species. Sure we can still be "for or against" inclusion of xbows in reg. archery season. But that should NEVER interfere with the big picture. LOL I can even see picking up my longbow and going hunting with Dalebow:). Might even let him try out my new xbow when i get it. Ok I've sounded like a politician long enough.

[hobow]

Xtreme I don't know you and I don't know multi. Heck I don't think I know anyone on here personally. But what I do know is we all care about hunting. Let's agree right here that no matter how this xbow thing comes out that we and our respective organizations can and will come together to find and promote more hunting opportunites in KY. That means more funding for WMA's, more available land for hunting, habitat improvement for all game and non game species. Sure we can still be "for or against" inclusion of xbows in reg. archery season. But that should NEVER interfere with the big picture. LOL I can even see picking up my longbow and going hunting with Dalebow:). Might even let him try out my new xbow when i get it. Ok I've sounded like a politician long enough.

What? Is this a peace pipe? Or are your smoking Crack ?:D

[turk2di]

What? Is this a peace pipe? Or are your smoking Crack ?:D
"Ohio does sell archery turkey tags - the harm to the fall flock by the crossbowers has so far been none existent".
Joekat46, i love ya buddy, but it's not the seen figures(Dept) i was refering too. It's the statistics that won't shot up on paper. The birds that pack off arrows. Quite simply, i feel that a small % of birds hit are actually recovered. Most of those die an unrecovered death. I feel that a x-bow will only embolden the shooter into shots due to the mentality of many that a x-bow is a rifled arrow! But im bettin(hopin) that participation will be minimal and as a result no consequence. Like dog's in the fall i got so upset about;)

[joekat46]

You may have a point. Somewhere in this mess "Sky" mentioned he limits his turkey bow shots to "head shots" only. Probably a good idea for everyone to think about. Way too many of the national Outdoor Channel guys are starting to promote the turkey with a bow "slam". Of course being sponsored by Double Bull is a big part of this. Very few bowhunters probably should be hunting turkeys but if one walks in just about everybody lets one fly. I wonder how many these "pros" don't recover. Most shows always have them hot footing after one and then magically having it dead in hand after the commercial.

What would happen if a crossbower also used a dog in the fall to hunt Peabody's turkeys? Would we have to commit you to the "funny farm"? You know I'm just messing with ya. You are one of the few on here that manages to keep his cool.

[Willie]

I wonder how many these "pros" don't recover. Most shows always have them hot footing after one and then magically having it dead in hand after the commercial.....


I've seen several questionable videos like that.

Since most turkeys look alike there is no telling how the end came about.

No doubt about it the kill zone on a turkey is rather small..

[Multidigits]

"Ohio does sell archery turkey tags - the harm to the fall flock by the crossbowers has so far been none existent".
Joekat46, i love ya buddy, but it's not the seen figures(Dept) i was refering too. It's the statistics that won't shot up on paper. The birds that pack off arrows. Quite simply, i feel that a small % of birds hit are actually recovered. Most of those die an unrecovered death. I feel that a x-bow will only embolden the shooter into shots due to the mentality of many that a x-bow is a rifled arrow! But im bettin(hopin) that participation will be minimal and as a result no consequence. Like dog's in the fall i got so upset about;)

It's just a fraction of the ones that take lead or hevi-shot out with them and later die. We have shotshells fully able to take turkeys at nearly 100 yards and there's far more people shooting them and not cleanly killing them than the few that archers of any kind get an arrow through. In fact the number is so low, it won't compute.

[schuyler olt]

Multi, with all due respect, I don't see how you can draw that conclusion.

First, a 2 3/4 high brass will throw lead fast enough to have lethal impact at 100 yards, so the development of hevi-shot is not the issue. We've had long-shot capability since day one, and guys have been taking long shots since day one, and with all of that we brought the flock from 37 birds on Shelley Nickells' farm to 250,000 birds with quality hunting in every county in the state.

Second, in my career, only once have I pulled the trigger and not killed the bird. Never have I cleaned a bird and seen that a pellet got through to the chest cavity and the vitals. That breast is too tough and their feathers have an unbelievable abilty to turn shot. I'm sure that if I let 'er rip from 30 yards straight at the chest cavity, shot would get to the vitals. At 100 yards I have my doubts. But I only have the experience of killing a wad of birds.

My longest shot, by the way, was 62 steps, and I killed the bird stone dead. I'm not proud of that either. I misjudged the distance in an open field on a foggy day. That will happen. Interestingly, my cripple was shot at fifteen yards. He was so close the wad hit him. I've thought about that bird hundreds of times, and I still can't figure out what happened.

As to archery, I know that it is easy to cripple one IF (and this is a big if), you get the shot off in the first place. Whether it's a recurve or a 95% let off, you still have to make the big move to pull the string, and those birds only have a 6 degree blind spot.

That's why my personal rule is only a head/neck shot. If I hit, that turkey is dead where he stands. If I miss, the miss will almost invariably be clean. I also try to be no further than 15 yards. That is to enhance my ability to hit it. But more importantly, I can cover that distance before a hard-hit bird can get away.

[Multidigits]

Multi, with all due respect, I don't see how you can draw that conclusion.

First, a 2 3/4 high brass will throw lead fast enough to have lethal impact at 100 yards, so the development of hevi-shot is not the issue. We've had long-shot capability since day one, and guys have been taking long shots since day one, and with all of that we brought the flock from 37 birds on Shelley Nickells' farm to 250,000 birds with quality hunting in every county in the state.

Second, in my career, only once have I pulled the trigger and not killed the bird. Never have I cleaned a bird and seen that a pellet got through to the chest cavity and the vitals. That breast is too tough and their feathers have an unbelievable abilty to turn shot. I'm sure that if I let 'er rip from 30 yards straight at the chest cavity, shot would get to the vitals. At 100 yards I have my doubts. But I only have the experience of killing a wad of birds.

My longest shot, by the way, was 62 steps, and I killed the bird stone dead. I'm not proud of that either. I misjudged the distance in an open field on a foggy day. That will happen. Interestingly, my cripple was shot at fifteen yards. He was so close the wad hit him. I've thought about that bird hundreds of times, and I still can't figure out what happened.

As to archery, I know that it is easy to cripple one IF (and this is a big if), you get the shot off in the first place. Whether it's a recurve or a 95% let off, you still have to make the big move to pull the string, and those birds only have a 6 degree blind spot.

That's why my personal rule is only a head/neck shot. If I hit, that turkey is dead where he stands. If I miss, the miss will almost invariably be clean. I also try to be no further than 15 yards. That is to enhance my ability to hit it. But more importantly, I can cover that distance before a hard-hit bird can get away.

What you do personally isn't the issue. It's what the other 80,000 turkey hunters do and the 90,000 bowhunters do. We know your going to do the right thing, it's all the other guys that we need to monitor. Some of them take shots too long, some of them miss some of them pepper, some of them wound multiple birds each year. I hear about them all the time, when the season gets here, you'll see them post it up on the forum. And it'll be far more than the fraction wounded by archers. Hell most of them won't even get a shot off during the archery season without spooking the birds. Look at the statistics, only 875 birds checked by archers. If teh wounding rate is 100% is still not a factor. Figure a 25% rate on 26,000 birds then it is a factor to consider.

[schuyler olt]

Most lethally wounded birds that get away are a product of shooting too low, not too far. If a pellet doesn't have enough steam to break a vertebrae or get into the brain, there's no way it can get into the vitals through those feathers and their bones. Their breastbones are thick and their muscles are tough. Many times I've breasted a bird and have seen what amounts to a bruise where a pellet hit the bird (you can count on a few strays--that's inherent in a shotgun), but the pellet never made it through the skin.

Shoot too low at close range and by diggity, you'll mortally wound that bird and he'll likely run or fly off. That's probably what happened with my bird.

It all boils down to hunter education and ethics. There are slob gun turkey hunters and slob turkey archers. Sadly, there always will be. And we have to face another reality--there will be slob xbowers, too. None of us like that, whether its gun, bow, x-bow. There is no question that an xbower will have a better chance to get a bolt off than an archer. That's one concern about the long season--it gives that slob the opportunity to wound a bunch of birds before he finally scratches out his two. Couple that with a "too many hens" mentality, and we've got real trouble, I fear. That's one reason I favor the shorter season--it gives the good guys a legimate chance to fill their tags, but keeps the risk of the slob killing 15 much lower.

[Multidigits]

Most lethally wounded birds that get away are a product of shooting too low, not too far. If a pellet doesn't have enough steam to break a vertebrae or get into the brain, there's no way it can get into the vitals through those feathers and their bones. Their breastbones are thick and their muscles are tough. Many times I've breasted a bird and have seen what amounts to a bruise where a pellet hit the bird (you can count on a few strays--that's inherent in a shotgun), but the pellet never made it through the skin.

Shoot too low at close range and by diggity, you'll mortally wound that bird and he'll likely run or fly off. That's probably what happened with my bird.

It all boils down to hunter education and ethics. There are slob gun turkey hunters and slob turkey archers. Sadly, there always will be. And we have to face another reality--there will be slob xbowers, too. None of us like that, whether its gun, bow, x-bow. There is no question that an xbower will have a better chance to get a bolt off than an archer. That's one concern about the long season--it gives that slob the opportunity to wound a bunch of birds before he finally scratches out his two. Couple that with a "too many hens" mentality, and we've got real trouble, I fear. That's one reason I favor the shorter season--it gives the good guys a legimate chance to fill their tags, but keeps the risk of the slob killing 15 much lower.

You can't pass regulations for slob hunters. You have to assume that everyone will be ethical and check their birds, shoot birds in range, and try to make a clean kill. Most will, some won't. The facts are that less of them will wound birds during the long archery season then will the short gun seasons. It's a statistic of the number of hunters out there. If only 10% are slobs, then you can figure the difference by how many are doing the shooting.

And the myth that the crossbower will be more successful than the conventional archer is just that--a myth. Look at the statistics in any state, then explain how or why Ky. will be different. It won't. X-bowers and conventional archers have nearly the same success rates. Failure rates will alos be comparable.

Maybe we need to limit the two fall seasons to one? And what happen to valuing Jim Lane's opinion???

[gwhilikerz]

Most lethally wounded birds that get away are a product of shooting too low, not too far. If a pellet doesn't have enough steam to break a vertebrae or get into the brain, there's no way it can get into the vitals through those feathers and their bones. Their breastbones are thick and their muscles are tough. Many times I've breasted a bird and have seen what amounts to a bruise where a pellet hit the bird (you can count on a few strays--that's inherent in a shotgun), but the pellet never made it through the skin.

Shoot too low at close range and by diggity, you'll mortally wound that bird and he'll likely run or fly off. That's probably what happened with my bird.

It all boils down to hunter education and ethics. There are slob gun turkey hunters and slob turkey archers. Sadly, there always will be. And we have to face another reality--there will be slob xbowers, too. None of us like that, whether its gun, bow, x-bow. There is no question that an xbower will have a better chance to get a bolt off than an archer. That's one concern about the long season--it gives that slob the opportunity to wound a bunch of birds before he finally scratches out his two. Couple that with a "too many hens" mentality, and we've got real trouble, I fear. That's one reason I favor the shorter season--it gives the good guys a legimate chance to fill their tags, but keeps the risk of the slob killing 15 much lower.
Well you didn't come right out and say it but your opinion is clear enough. To you xbowers are slobs who wound and maim while others who bowhunt are "the good guys'. It doesn't matter to me now what you think or what you have to say about anything. You just became an "elitist". Now you don't have to pretend any more, you don't have to act like you care for all hunters. You can just come right out and say it.."This is the way I hunt and if you don't do it this way you are a slob." Life is so much simpler when you just say what is on your mind.

[Multidigits]

One of the problems with crossbow acceptance is fighting these myths about the weapon itself and the folks that use them. What we're saying here now is that a bunch of our older, more experienced hunters and a few disabled folks are not worthy hunters. We can talk about adding some kids to the ranks, why not talk about retention just the same???

[Al]

Multi I agree 100% about retention. You get to an age where bow hunting becomes physicaly very difficult yet you are not disabled nor aged yet. And many people do not like being in the woods during the gun season because of the dangers ,which I can attest to since I took a 270 slug in the ass 18 yrs ago. So what do they want ?
Stick us in the late season to freeze to our butts off. It seems like there is alot of age descrimation going on. Read how the council members are described as fat asses, old , have to be woken up to vote etc.

[Multidigits]

Yes he did say that the xbower is a slob hunter didnt he! Mabey it was an accident while he was typing fast, and he didnt review it, or mabey he was typing fast and let his real feelings slip out.

Multi I agree 100% about retention. You get to an age where bow hunting becomes physicaly very difficult yet you are not disabled nor aged yet. And many people do not like being in the woods during the gun season because of the dangers ,which I can attest to since I took a 270 slug in the ass 18 yrs ago. So what do they want ?
Stick us in the late season to freeze to our butts off. It seems like there is alot of age descrimation going on. Read how the council members are described as fat asses, old , have to be woken up to vote etc.

Funny that you mention the late season and freezing your butt off. That was Sky's line when he got the fall Oct. season change in if I remeber correctly. He convinced me to support his idea because it made sense that he could hunt turkeys on one place and I could bowhunt deer on another without either being impacted by the other. Now, that's all changed, because it's a crossbow.

I know Sky's a good fellow and I wish he was on our side, but he's not for his own reasons. He has concerns different than the data available and different than what the biologists tell us will happen. I believe he's wrong on the issues as they stand, including the preception that the Commission meeting was not a lawful meeting.We'll see how that one plays out next month.

One other thing, insulting the Commission will not be taken lightly, all the negative comments that the anti's have lodged will be noticed and I doubt forgotten. I would imagine we'll hear something or two about some of those comments.

[schuyler olt]

The "good guys" I was referring to are the ethical crossbow hunters, who will definitely be the majority. Read my post again, please.

There are some slobs in every form of hunting and fishing. Xbows will have some too.

Every time I've seen a form of hunting expand rapidly, inexperience has to be a part of the equation. That has certainly been true in turkey hunting as it has exploded in popularity. The inexperience factor may be large, small, or virtually nonexistent, I don't know. If I could foresee that, I'd be down at the store buying a powerball ticket right now, you know.

Multi, I don't disagree with you that it may be appropriate to revisit the fall turkey limits--I've thought about that, too, and that's a good positive discussion. It sort of goes to my main point as well--big changes are better done with forethought than afterthought.

As to valuing Jim Lane's opinion, why wasn't that done with respect to the Saturday spring opener? He presented three alternatives, and flatly stated that he preferred "no change." I do value Jim's opinion, very highly. I differ with him on this one though, for a very simple reason. We have so little data regarding xbows, and that data has so many different conditions than Kentucky, that any scientific conclusions you try to draw from it cannot be as solid as conclusions derived from large amounts of data. That's science 101. It's why horse players buy the Daily Racing Form instead of pulling numbers out of a hat. And even with all the past performances, the tips, looking at the horses in the paddock, watching trends in the odds before the race, those guys still lose more than they win, and the longshot is invariably hit by the little old lady who only bets on grey horses being ridden by jockeys wearing blue silks.

Compare the data Jim had available to him on this issue to George Wright's gobbler mortality study that took five years, involved hundreds of birds with transmitters on their backs and over $30,000, not including salaries. On this issue, Jim is applying his intuition to the data before him, and it's his intuition that I place the highest value upon. But I'm older, more conservative, and I prefer to gamble at the racetrack instead of the turkey woods. I'd much rather be in a position a couple of years from now, looking at data collected by Kentucky xbow hunters, saying let's expand the season FURTHER than saying "we've got to rein that season in, cut limits, etc. because we didn't see this coming."

Multi, thanks for the compliment, by the way. You know very well that I have really good friends on both sides of this, and that those friendships will remain long after this is history. I count you among those friends, just as I do Jim Strader. My goal is to try to find a way to come together.

I look at this and I see a great racecar where the back wheels are going forward and the fronts are going backward. All that horsepower being applied to the track, and that car is going nowhere. Let's get all four rolling forward together, and charge to the front of the pack.

[gwhilikerz]

I have seen many people posting that we can't go by the stats collected in other states because their situation is different from KY. Somebody enlighten me. What is the difference? What makes these stats useless in KY? Are the deer different? The hunters? The terrain? I don't for a minute think these stats are useless, but I have changed my mind before.

[schuyler olt]

GW,

I'm speaking of the turkey stats. Ohio, which was the only state from which we had data before the vote was taken, has a fall season in only 2/5ths of its counties.

Ohio has a one bird limit in the fall regardless of weapon used. We have two archery and two gun fall limits, for a total of four.

Ohio's week long fall gun season is BEFORE its crossbow season. As a result, every successful gun hunter CANNOT return to the field for xbow season. Their crossbow season is pretty short. I think, and I may be wrong here, that it's shorter than our existing fall crossbow turkey season. You realize that in Kentucky, it was already legal for ANYONE to xbow hunt fall turkeys for five weeks, don't you?

Multi's suggestion about revisiting our fall season limits would conform us more closely with Ohio's limits, if I understand him correctly.

One unfortunate thing in all of this is that when telechek was set up, it didn't differentiate between bows and xbows. It would sure be nice to have that data to compare numbers taken versus number of xbows afield.

[Xcutter]

you are right Ohio is a perfect example of what will happen to kentucky deer. I tried to videotape a college friend of mine up there last year and the only deer that we saw were the deer that were driven to us on the last day. I'm not saying that everyone up there does it but that seems to be the more popular method. I don't know about anyone else but the idea of shooting a deer that has been driven to me is just not my style. The added pressure to Ky public lands will cause the deer to be even more scarce during daylight hours than they already are. Xtreme is very correct in saying that a crowded deer woods in going to be counter productive.

[joekat46]

you are right Ohio is a perfect example of what will happen to kentucky deer. I tried to videotape a college friend of mine up there last year and the only deer that we saw were the deer that were driven to us on the last day. I'm not saying that everyone up there does it but that seems to be the more popular method. I don't know about anyone else but the idea of shooting a deer that has been driven to me is just not my style. The added pressure to Ky public lands will cause the deer to be even more scarce during daylight hours than they already are. Xtreme is very correct in saying that a crowded deer woods in going to be counter productive.

The "deer drive" is an old tactic used throughout the midwest especially in farm country. The usual Ohio gun hunt usually goes like this - stand hunt in the morning - eat lunch - drive a few pockets of brush or woods in the afternoon - stand hunt in the evening. So what and what does it have to do with a crossbow? If you don't want to shoot a "driven deer" then don't.

[Willie]

.........
One unfortunate thing in all of this is that when telechek was set up, it didn't differentiate between bows and xbows. It would sure be nice to have that data to compare numbers taken versus number of xbows afield.

Willie - Are you quite sure about that, at least for deer?

I know I checked in my KY crossbow buck last year I pushed the number that registered - CROSSBOW.

Now whether the state tabulates that any different is an unknown, but I know I was asked and I registered it as a crossbow kill not a "bow" kill..

[gwhilikerz]

you are right Ohio is a perfect example of what will happen to kentucky deer. I tried to videotape a college friend of mine up there last year and the only deer that we saw were the deer that were driven to us on the last day. I'm not saying that everyone up there does it but that seems to be the more popular method. I don't know about anyone else but the idea of shooting a deer that has been driven to me is just not my style. The added pressure to Ky public lands will cause the deer to be even more scarce during daylight hours than they already are. Xtreme is very correct in saying that a crowded deer woods in going to be counter productive.
So you took a video camera and didn't see any deer but the ones driven to you? Does that mean that there are no deer in Ohio, or that you can't hunt, or the deer weren't moving, you had a bad place, or what? And what does any of this have to do with the crossbow issue? You guys are really starting to stretch things now.:(

[Multidigits]

Sky, I'll offer a compromise on the turkey subject if we can agree to keep the crossbow season as passed. Turkey limits can be zoned for as I care. I have too many now, but I'm sure others don't?

[Xcutter]

Whats the stretch, if you can see past the end of your nose its easy to see that increased hunting pressure will be counter productive.

[Xcutter]

Lets see. The areas that are going to be hit the hardest by the crossguns are the WMA's. For those that only hunt WMA's might as well hang it up if the only way to see a deer is to drive them. I couln't stomach hunting those WMA's anymore It would be to much like hunting the D' Boone National Forest or Ohio for that matter.

[gwhilikerz]

Have you seen some of the bucks coming out of Ohio? I don't see any detriment to the herd, especially where horizontal andd vertical bows are concerned. Now about those dreaded "deer drives". Hunters have been doing that for years. Are you telling me that when you have hunted with even one other person that at some point one of you didn't try to move the deer to the other? If you haven't then you are missing out on some mighty fine experiences.

[Willie]

Yeah, they are really hurting over in Ohio.. Poor guys..

http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/News/hunting_recorddeerseason0105.htm

Ohio Hunters Set New Record

217,301 Deer Taken During the 2004-2005 Season

Ohio hunters have set a new record, taking 217,301 deer during the 2004-2005 hunting season. Additional records were set during the muzzleloader, archery and youth hunting seasons.

Counties reporting the highest number of deer checked during the year were: Tuscarawas - 8,293; Coshocton - 7,055; Licking - 6,610; Washington - 6,110; Guernsey - 6, 028; Harrison - 6, 021; Holmes - 5,930; Athens - 5,915; Muskingum - 5,779; and Jefferson - 5,481. See table of total deer harvest by county.

From opening day of the deer-archery season in October, Ohio hunters were on a record- setting pace. Young hunters set a new mark in the second year of the state’s two-day youth deer-gun season with 6,673 deer killed.
During the four-day statewide muzzleloader season, hunters took a record 27,749 deer. Hunters also exceeded the record for deer taken during the archery season (October 2 to January 31) with 57,198. A total of 125,681 deer was killed during the popular one-week deer gun season.

A record trophy buck was recognized with Warren County bow hunter Brad Jerman shooting a buck that scored 201 1/8 in the typical (symmetrical antlers) category of the Buckeye Big Bucks Club. Jerman’s deer tied the score of a buck taken in 1986 in Clark County by William Kontras.

(This was a crossbow kill)

Deer hunting contributes an estimated $266 million to Ohio's economy each year and helps to support thousands of jobs. Venison is delicious and nutritious meat, low in fat and cholesterol. It is the number one wild game served by hunters in Ohio. Deer hunters also contribute thousands of pounds of venison to organizations that help feed less-fortunate Ohio residents through special programs. Organizations that serve the state of Ohio include: Sportsmen Against Hunger | Farmers and Hunters Feeding the Hungry.

[Xcutter]

Have you been seeing some of the bucks coming out of Kentucky??? I think I have saw six PandY bucks in the past two years on Yellow Bank WMA and Grayson Lake WMA 4 of them I can show you cause they are on video. Remember though they are both bow only and Yellow band has the 15 inch rule. That is deer Management.

[Multidigits]

Lets see. The areas that are going to be hit the hardest by the crossguns are the WMA's. For those that only hunt WMA's might as well hang it up if the only way to see a deer is to drive them. I couln't stomach hunting those WMA's anymore It would be to much like hunting the D' Boone National Forest or Ohio for that matter.


Everybody wants to see the DATA, where's the data that says the crossbow users are going to pile into the WMAs?????

[Willie]

http://www.dnr.ohio.gov/wildlife/Images/hunting/deer/brad_todd_mike_small.jpg

in this picture you have a crossbow kill and an 85% let off compound bow kill.


http://www.dnr.ohio.gov/wildlife/News/recordbuck_scored.htm

Official Scorers Say Warren County Buck

New State Record

Largest typical deer ever taken by a crossbow hunter

white-tailed deer killed last fall in Warren County is an Ohio record, and if approved by national scoring organizations, will also rank among the top 10 all-time largest typical deer in the world, according to the Ohio Department of Natural Resources (ODNR) Division of Wildlife.

Deer hunters have been anxiously waiting for the official scoring of a huge white-tailed buck shot by Springboro crossbow hunter Brad Jerman on November 10 in Warren County. A panel of judges put together by the Buckeye Big Bucks Club (BBBC) met today to decide whether the deer would become the top typical whitetail ever taken in Ohio, and possibly the biggest ever taken anywhere by a crossbow hunter.

Brad Jerman’s adventure began when he shot the huge 11-point typical whitetail. Jerman contacted Buckeye Big Bucks President Gary Trent of Waynesville, an official scorer for several antler scoring organizations, including Boone and Crockett. Trent initially scored (green scored) the buck at 202 1/8. Antlers are required to "dry" for 60 days before an official score can be taken. A deer’s antlers are classified as being typical when they are symmetrical and regular in shape. Non-typical antlers are those that have uneven or unusual tines, irregular points or outgrowths.

The Buckeye Big Buck Club keeps records of trophy bucks taken by hunters in Ohio. Trent organized a panel of six judges to measure the buck and come up with an official BBBC score. At the end of the session, Jerman’s buck came away with a score of 201 1/8, tied with a buck taken by William D. Kontras in Clark County in 1986. The Kontras Buck was never panel-scored. BBBC bylaws state that to be recognized as a state record, antlers must be scored by a panel of scorers. For world records, the Boone and Crockett Club (B&C) does an official scoring panel only once every three years so the Jerman Buck will be officially scored for B&C world record consideration in 2007.

Jerman said he couldn't be more thrilled with the deer's score and the considerable excitement it has caused among Ohio's hunters. "I'm basically a meat hunter, but always interested in a trophy animal," said Jerman. "We feed our family on venison. I was blessed to be at the right place at the right time."

In the last five years, Ohio has seen a number of records eclipsed. The non-typical title was awarded to Mike Beatty of Xenia for his 2000 bow-killed deer in Greene County. The Beatty Buck scored 304 6/8 and currently ranks as the number one non-typical buck in Ohio, the largest non-typical ever taken by a hunter, and the top non-typical in the country on the trophy lists for Safari Club International (SCI). A panel for the Pope and Young Club will score the Beatty Buck in March.

The score sheet on the Jerman Buck will be submitted to the Boone and Crockett Club for future inclusion in the world records. Jerman’s buck should end up listed as the number 10 typical in the world, but will be the largest taken by a crossbow hunter according to SCI records. SCI’s current record for a free-ranging crossbow killed deer is 192.

[Multidigits]

Have you been seeing some of the bucks coming out of Kentucky??? I think I have saw six PandY bucks in the past two years on Yellow Bank WMA and Grayson Lake WMA 4 of them I can show you cause they are on video. Remember though they are both bow only and Yellow band has the 15 inch rule. That is deer Management.

Crossbow hunters will be there soon, and have the same success rates as conventional archers. And we here that Yellowbanks is all but annexed by Indiana now days. Those Hoosiers must have left some for the new hunters? Nice.

[Xcutter]

You ever heard of the KISS method?? Quit trying to fluff the topic. You guys are like one big Giant Crossgun Commercial. Who are you trying to persuade me or you. Are you guys the type of people that think the reason we don't have the #'s is because we don't have enough hunters. You ever think maybe we don't have the deer #'s. Multi said himself that they could very well be pulling those deer population #'s from a Crystal Ball.
"you just can't get everything you want for Christmas" or for deer season. Sometimes its not practical.

[Multidigits]

You ever heard of the KISS method?? Quit trying to fluff the topic. You guys are like one big Giant Crossgun Commercial. Who are you trying to persuade me or you. Are you guys the type of people that think the reason we don't have the #'s is because we don't have enough hunters. You ever think maybe we don't have the deer #'s. Multi said himself that they could very well be pulling those deer population #'s from a Crystal Ball.
"you just can't get everything you want for Christmas" or for deer season. Sometimes its not practical.


This is the crossbow section. If you don't like how it reads, feel free to break away and post somewhere else.

[Xcutter]

Yeah Your right Multi. I can see it now a whole bunch of Elmer Fudd's stalking the woods at 9:00 in the morning. And at 9:30 they will be drinking Coffee at the truck trying to come up with a good deer drive!!! Yup thats just what I want to see.

[Multidigits]

Yeah Your right Multi. I can see it now a whole bunch of Elmer Fudd's stalking the woods at 9:00 in the morning. And at 9:30 they will be drinking Coffee at the truck trying to come up with a good deer drive!!! Yup thats just what I want to see.

You ever seen a deer archery drive? I have. Several use the tactic, seldom done in Ky. though. And ole Elmer was a rabbit hunter if I remember correctly, surely your not prejudiced against those guys too???

[Xcutter]

Is the third guy in the picture the guy that drove the deer to the cross gun hunter:confused:

[Willie]

Is the third guy in the picture the guy that drove the deer to the cross gun hunter:confused:

It seems that you don't have too high of an opinion of other hunters.

Why did you not ask if the "third guy in the picture the guy that drove the deer to the 85% let off compound bowhunter"?

No, I'd say you are one of those that think you are better than some other hunters because of your choice in hunting equipment.

Do you really believe it is what is in our hands that makes one a hunter?

When one hunter cuts down another hunter because of THEIR choice in equipment I always wonder if they are trying to build themselves up by cutting down the other hunter.

Sad, very sad..

[Xcutter]

Right again!!! who is cutting who down. I did get carried away on the third guy deal. But for the most part I am stating honest opinions. And now I am predudice. Did you mean to direct that at Multi.

[gwhilikerz]

You ever heard of the KISS method?? Quit trying to fluff the topic. You guys are like one big Giant Crossgun Commercial. Who are you trying to persuade me or you. Are you guys the type of people that think the reason we don't have the #'s is because we don't have enough hunters. You ever think maybe we don't have the deer #'s. Multi said himself that they could very well be pulling those deer population #'s from a Crystal Ball.
"you just can't get everything you want for Christmas" or for deer season. Sometimes its not practical.
Don't have the numbers? Gosh do you live on another planet or what? I don't think multi and i agree about deer numbers but here in the western part of the state they are everywhere.
Kiss method? yeah that would be the old kisser button on your hightech compound wouldn't it. I don't "fluff" the topic, I've never fluffed anything in my life. I think you attempt to sway opinions is feeble and stupid. Better take some advice from the real "front men" of the anti's.

[Willie]

Where has Multi put anyone down on their choice of equipment?

If anything Multi is the most INclusionary person on here.

I can always tell a prejudice hunter when he starts to denigrate an inantimate object by purposely misnaming it - in this case a crossGUN.

Kind of like what the anti-gun people do when they call a semi-auto rifle an "assualt rifle" or an inexpensive hand gun a "Saturday Night Special".

That only shows your ignorance of a fine hunting tool.

[Multidigits]

More oppurtunity, without harm to the resourse = A good thing

Tear that apart with your twisted logic.

[Xcutter]

Twisted logic humm. Lets untwist your logic. Crossgun = more money. And thats what it boils down to. Who hear really cares about the deer. I do. By the way I like the idea of relating me to an anti gun promoter thats an easy way to push my ideas under the rug and push "fence straddlers" to your side.

[Multidigits]

Twisted logic humm. Lets untwist your logic. Crossgun = more money. And thats what it boils down to. Who hear really cares about the deer. I do. By the way I like the idea of relating me to an anti gun promoter thats an easy way to push my ideas under the rug and push "fence straddlers" to your side.

Tell me how selling crossbows at cost is making me money? i'm getting Ky. hunters and members of the UCBK geared up with quality equipment at the lowest possible price. I've done the same for UBK members since 1972.

As for your concerns, the deer and turkey herds will be protected. The data is sound and shows what you fear won't happen. Something changes, then season adjustments can be made, just as they are now. it's not an issue, no matter which side of the fence your on.

[shogan]

How come all the Archery elitist (purist) are not against the use of 90%+ let off bows. I can hold 6-8lbs for a lot longer then what I have now.

How come the recurve shooters are not complaining about the inequities allowed by the compound bows.

How come folks who have inferior physical characterics are not complaining about the unfair playing ground set up by superior physical assets (be it genetic or physical deficiencies).

How come all those who complain about the woods being so crowded at gun time are not rejoicing that this might be an opportunity for some folks to take their deer in a different time of the season and spread out the harvest. ((People won't take any more deer than they currently do)).

I tell you why it's has more to do with the "mine" 3 year old attitude and people not wanting to share, than it does anything else. Somehow they feel that this will open archery season up to more folks (not what they want). They are not worried about deer population (shit I can kill as many as I want with a gun what the heck does it matter if I have a crossbow)).

This is the last I have to say about it. Anyone who complains is doing it for purely selfish reasons.

Well nah nah nah nah. Go sit over your bait pile, scent sprayed, mineral lick, decoy deer, estrogen dripped, maxi pad, to much time on your hands for scouting, and lump the fact that some of us archers will be using a crossbow. I don't care if you like it, just like you don't care if a recurve guy likes yours, and the recurve guy doesnt care that someone else feels it's best to shoot them with a camera. Get out and enjoy yourself and GROW UP all of you. Your hurting all sportsman.

[Willie]

Twisted logic humm. Lets untwist your logic. Crossgun = more money. And thats what it boils down to. Who hear really cares about the deer. I do. By the way I like the idea of relating me to an anti gun promoter thats an easy way to push my ideas under the rug and push "fence straddlers" to your side.

You are using the very same tactics as not only the anti-gunners, but also the animal rights people.

They use mis-naming and renaming denigration tactics just like you are attempting to do.

You are attempting to denigrate the crossbow by renaming it crossGUN. That might fly with your old buds, but it makes you come off as either arrogant or ignorant of what a crossbow really is.

Hopefully you will be one of those that speak at the commission meeting and can mouth off about "crossguns".

[Willie]

How come all the Archery elitist (purist) are not against the use of 90%+ let off bows. I can hold 6-8lbs for a lot longer then what I have now.

How come the recurve shooters are not complaining about the inequities allowed by the compound bows.

How come folks who have inferior physical characterics are not complaining about the unfair playing ground set up by superior physical assets (be it genetic or physical deficiencies).

How come all those who complain about the woods being so crowded at gun time are not rejoicing that this might be an opportunity for some folks to take their deer in a different time of the season and spread out the harvest. ((People won't take any more deer than they currently do)).

I tell you why it's has more to do with the "mine" 3 year old attitude and people not wanting to share, than it does anything else. Somehow they feel that this will open archery season up to more folks (not what they want). They are not worried about deer population (shit I can kill as many as I want with a gun what the heck does it matter if I have a crossbow)).

This is the last I have to say about it. Anyone who complains is doing it for purely selfish reasons.

Well nah nah nah nah. Go sit over your bait pile, scent sprayed, mineral lick, decoy deer, estrogen dripped, maxi pad, to much time on your hands for scouting, and lump the fact that some of us archers will be using a crossbow. I don't care if you like it, just like you don't care if a recurve guy likes yours, and the recurve guy doesnt care that someone else feels it's best to shoot them with a camera. Get out and enjoy yourself and GROW UP all of you. Your hurting all sportsman.

Well said, sir....

[ez]

great post.............i read this after i posted mine..............shut the X-up and hunt with what you want and state allows..................................short version.............ez

[gwhilikerz]

Twisted logic humm. Lets untwist your logic. Crossgun = more money. And thats what it boils down to. Who hear really cares about the deer. I do. By the way I like the idea of relating me to an anti gun promoter thats an easy way to push my ideas under the rug and push "fence straddlers" to your side.
You don't need any help with the fence straddlers. You are pushing them to our side all by yourself. Thank You for your covert support:)

[Xcutter]

I've been called prejudiced, ignorant, stupid and arrogant and who knows what else so far and I am the one that is degrading the other sportsmen. Bottom line is that its all about the money!!! Who cares about the deer?


Shogan, who are you refering to when you say: so go sit over your bait etc.. too much time on their hands for scouting... I hope its not just bowhunters, after all its right after the gun season opener that you can't find a bottle of doe in heat scent on the shelf at Wal-mart. Fact is that putting a crossbow in your hands won't make you any more succesful than you allready are with a bow. That is unless you have Multi, Gwillikers and Willy driving them to you!!!

Its the added pressure on the WMA's that is going to hurt. Don't be mad just because i'm right!!!

[Multidigits]

I've been called prejudiced, ignorant, stupid and arrogant and who knows what else so far and I am the one that is degrading the other sportsmen. Bottom line is that its all about the money!!! Who cares about the deer?


Shogan, who are you refering to when you say: so go sit over your bait etc.. too much time on their hands for scouting... I hope its not just bowhunters, after all its right after the gun season opener that you can't find a bottle of doe in heat scent on the shelf at Wal-mart. Fact is that putting a crossbow in your hands won't make you any more succesful than you allready are with a bow. That is unless you have Multi, Gwillikers and Willy driving them to you!!!

Its the added pressure on the WMA's that is going to hurt. Don't be mad just because i'm right!!!

Just post up the proof that so we might be able to believe you?

[Xcutter]

Just post up the proof that so we might be able to believe you? I don't understand???

[Multidigits]

Dang, it's not that hard. You said this "Its the added pressure on the WMA's that is going to hurt. Don't be mad just because i'm right!!!"

I said this "Just post up the proof that so we might be able to believe you?"

You said "I don't understand???"

Now the question is, do you not have any direct evidence that the crossbow is going to cause the WMAs to be overcrowded or not? If you have it, post it up or a source to it. If you've dreamed it, then it doesn't matter because it won't matter in the dicussion.

[Xcutter]

Now lets see if you can figure this out : I said that they were my Honest opinions in an earlier post. Yup everybody has one!! But if you can tell me how you think that it won't add pressure I might be a little more understanding(without saying well so and so does it) guess what we aren't so and so. Not everyone has a lease or owns 100 or 200 acres to hunt on. So if you sell 1000 xbows to people that did not bow hunt before and half of them don't have leases or private land to hunt then 500 of them are going to hunt public land. Is that hard to see. Do i have to post it in a picture show for you to under stand that.

[gwhilikerz]

I suggest anger management classes.

[Willie]

Xcutter - "I've been called prejudiced,.."

Willie - Yep, it would appear that you are. When I posted a picture of two very nice deer taken with a crossbow and a compound bow. You made the remark –“Is the third guy in the picture the guy that drove the deer to the cross gun hunter.

Xcutter – “……. ignorant,.”

Willie – Anyone that would misname a crossbow by calling it a crossGUN in order to denigrate it is “ignorant” of what it really is – a fine hunting tool.

Xcutter – “……. Stupid.”

Willie – I didn’t catch that one, I certainly didn’t say it. I don’t think you are “stupid “ at all. Miss-informed and ill informed, but not “stupid”. Don’t feel bad 5 years ago I was just like you putting down crossbows and the people that wanted to use them. Nothing like a disabling injury to straighten out one’s head. I hope you don’t learn that the hard way like I did.

Xcutter – “……. and arrogant..”

Willie – “Ignorant and/or “arrogant”. You make the choice.

Xcutter – “…….. and who knows what else so far and I am the one that is degrading the other sportsmen.”

Willie – The rebuttal is against the remarks you are making, not necessarily you. When you call another hunter’s hunting tool something it isn’t in order to bad mouth it and him by extension then you are degrading the other hunter. Top that with you stating that deer need to be driven to crossbowers kind of tops it all off.

Xcutter – “……. Bottom line is that its all about the money!!!”

Willie – Your proof of that is what?

Xcutter – “……. Who cares about the deer?”

Willie – Since crossbows and compound have the same success rate how can this affect the “deer”?

[Multidigits]

Now lets see if you can figure this out : I said that they were my Honest opinions in an earlier post. Yup everybody has one!! But if you can tell me how you think that it won't add pressure I might be a little more understanding(without saying well so and so does it) guess what we aren't so and so. Not everyone has a lease or owns 100 or 200 acres to hunt on. So if you sell 1000 xbows to people that did not bow hunt before and half of them don't have leases or private land to hunt then 500 of them are going to hunt public land. Is that hard to see. Do i have to post it in a picture show for you to under stand that.

Let's see....they tell us that 95% of the lands are private lands. So, it's likely that most of the hunters hunt private lands, not WMAs. The antis tell us that the crossbow won't add any new hunters, only pull some that are already hunting with another weapon, mostly bowhunters(which is the real fear). So, these new crossbow hunters are not new hunters and there is no increase in pressure. They hunt where they hunt now, some on WMAs and most on private lands.

If you can post your source that 50% of the crossbow buyers will hunt the WMAs that your using, we'll discuss the data. If not, then you don't have any arguement. And opinions don't count, show the data where it happened anywhere as you say it will.

[Xcutter]

I love the way you guys cloud the actual point being made with useless garbage. Why don't you go back read the points i made and then post. About the points I am making. Point being: the addition of xbows will crowd WMA's and be counter productive.

[Xcutter]

Obviously you have never hunted the Daniel Boone forest. I took a drive down Big Perry fire trail during one gun season and If I wanted to stopped to take a piss I would have had to parrallel park that is a fact. There is a truck or car parked at every other wide spot at Yellow Bank.

[shogan]

[QUOTE=Xcutter]
Shogan, who are you refering to when you say: so go sit over your bait etc.. too much time on their hands for scouting... I hope its not just bowhunters, after all its right after the gun season opener that you can't find a bottle of doe in heat scent on the shelf at Wal-mart.
QUOTE]

No directed at anyone it's was driving to the point that we all use different methods and we don't ALL agree with or use ALL the methods. Also laughing at myself for pouring deer pee on my clothes. And a 3 year old reference from here where hunters mentioned using certain products acquired from our wives to aid in the deer hunting under the premise that the body cheical products would be similar.

[shogan]

Point being: the addition of xbows will crowd WMA's and be counter productive.


See my point rings true it's all about you. You don't want people out hunting while your hunting with your bow.

If you don't want to share go buy some land.

Think about how many deer and space would be left for us XBOWS if we took away all the inline bows and guns. Thats your argument now does it make sense when I use it to my favor and not yours.

[shogan]

Fellows I looked back (the last 4 pages) and it's primarily xcutter showing his A$$. I've made the points and he has admitted it's all about not sharing the woods. We heard this argument 1000's of times even from bow hunters hating squirrel hunters on WMA it never ends and it's not worth any more time.

[gwhilikerz]

I love the way you guys cloud the actual point being made with useless garbage. Why don't you go back read the points i made and then post. About the points I am making. Point being: the addition of xbows will crowd WMA's and be counter productive.
Show the stats to prove this.

[maxcam]

FACT: These numbers are from the KDFW ......5226 slots available for all quota hunts on all wma’s . . That is a conservative number as there is no data given for handicapped or crossbow only hunts (wonders why)…..It 2004 there were nearly 15000 aplicants All but one of the WMA hunts were full and that one lacked three applicants of being full and some quata hunts are triple the number of slots available.

[Multidigits]

FACT: These numbers are from the KDFW ......5226 slots available for all quota hunts on all wma’s . . That is a conservative number as there is no data given for handicapped or crossbow only hunts (wonders why)…..It 2004 there were nearly 15000 aplicants All but one of the WMA hunts were full and that one lacked three applicants of being full and some quata hunts are triple the number of slots available.

Your quoting stats from the Quota Hunts, not everyday hunting on the open WMAs.

[gwhilikerz]

FACT: These numbers are from the KDFW ......5226 slots available for all quota hunts on all wma’s . . That is a conservative number as there is no data given for handicapped or crossbow only hunts (wonders why)…..It 2004 there were nearly 15000 aplicants All but one of the WMA hunts were full and that one lacked three applicants of being full and some quata hunts are triple the number of slots available.
Ok there are 5226 slots. How will the xbow increase the hunters in the wma's during these quota hunts? answer: xbows will have NO affect. 5226 is still 5226.

[Willie]

It sounds like maxcam is against more hunters as it would lessen HIS chance of getting drawn for quota hunts.

Would he hold that same belief if the Archery in Schools produced a LOT more bowhunters and they started putting in for quota hunts?

Is it ONLY because some new hunters might be carrying a hunting tool that he doesn't approve of that "might" get drawn instead of him?

Maybe he would like for the F & W to make it MORE difficult for people to start hunting and this increase his odds of getting to hunt a quota hunt?

Very contradictory...

[Xcutter]

How will it not crowd wma's and public land ??? Don't tell me that not one person that just gun hunts isn't going to buy an Xbow and hunt on a wma or public land.


So explain to me how its not!!!

[Multidigits]

Sure, we hope so, that's the aim anyway. We're for more oppurtunity, not less. If it overcrowds the WMAs then that's a separate issue and gets dealt with on another vote. Lot's of options available. We don't try to decide who gets to hunt public lands and who doesn't. they belong to all of us, not just the present day archers.

[gwhilikerz]

If there is an influx of hunters onto wma's because of xbows and Archery in Schools program then we go to the kdfwr and insist they do more to create more wma's. Spend some of the surplus BUYING or longterm leasing suitable hunting land and start a more aggressive habitat improvement program. Lots of possibilties exist to improve things. I don't think xbows will do anything noticeable to crowd the wma's. I don't pretend to know what happens at those wma's I'm not familiar with, but here in Western KY the wma's I hunt are not crowded during archery season. It is seldom I even come across another hunter.
If somebody finds crowds of bowhunters around Pennyrile/Tradewater/ Jones Keeney then please take a picture of them. I've been hunting those places for over 30 yrs and have heard about the crowds there but never have seen them. Pennyrile used to be way overcrowded during gun season but the quota hunt has done away with that, but I remain an opponent of the quota hunt there. Jones Keeney has no quota hunt and IS crowded during gun seasons, but I still manage to find a tree to lean against. And In the last 3 years of gun hunting there I have yet to run into another hunter in the woods although the number of vehicles and tents would suggest they are there.

[XTREME TEAM]

There is no data that can show what the number of hunters or deer taken on a WMA'S look like. Fact being that in the past hunters had to use data cards and report to a check station or drop box with that card. Reporting what the harvest was, how many did they see, what the number of there hunting party is. That enabled the WMA to keep a fairly close record to what was going on with the WMA. Now all that is required to hunt certian WMA's is a license. Not a very effective tool when trying to count the number of deer that was harvested in a particular area on a WMA or the amount of hunting pressure that was applied to a particular area on the WMA. I agree that there should be a change with season dates to allow for a longer time period for a hunter use a xbow. Exspessially since a state wide survey( also a survey to which I never laid eyes on) says that there is a peaking interest that the sportsman of kentucky would like to use a crossbow. But to jump head first into a experiment of this size could have drastic effects on the deer heards on WMA's across the state. And yes I said experiment if some thing has never been done before it is a experiment. And this has never been done before in the Commonwealth of Kentucky. Any time you release more predators into the wild there will be a decrease in the population of the hunted species. And that folks is a fact....

[shogan]

Man yall have beaten this topic into the ground.

Hate to see what you do on an important (life) issue.

[Multidigits]

There is no data that can show what the number of hunters or deer taken on a WMA'S look like. Fact being that in the past hunters had to use data cards and report to a check station or drop box with that card. Reporting what the harvest was, how many did they see, what the number of there hunting party is. That enabled the WMA to keep a fairly close record to what was going on with the WMA. Now all that is required to hunt certian WMA's is a license. Not a very effective tool when trying to count the number of deer that was harvested in a particular area on a WMA or the amount of hunting pressure that was applied to a particular area on the WMA. I agree that there should be a change with season dates to allow for a longer time period for a hunter use a xbow. Exspessially since a state wide survey( also a survey to which I never laid eyes on) says that there is a peaking interest that the sportsman of kentucky would like to use a crossbow. But to jump head first into a experiment of this size could have drastic effects on the deer heards on WMA's across the state. And yes I said experiment if some thing has never been done before it is a experiment. And this has never been done before in the Commonwealth of Kentucky. Any time you release more predators into the wild there will be a decrease in the population of the hunted species. And that folks is a fact....

we have a statewide policy that hunters can kill an unlimited number of does from most of the state, and 4 from a lot more of it. You'll have a very hard time convincing anyone that a few crossbow hunters are going to wipe out all the deer. A certain portion of those deer will be from WMAs no doubt. WMAs bought or leased with dept. money mostly. Crossbowers have earned their access to these areas as well. If they get too crowded, then that's a different issue to deal with, not what a person decides to hunt with.

[XTREME TEAM]

Maybe it is time to start looking at alternatives for if and when some of these WMA's get crowded. Could it possible be as simple as charging for a permit to use the property such as a land use fee. If a change like that was to take place it would probably be a pill that most bowhunters could swallow knowing that even though there is a increase of hunters on a WMA it will be bringing in more revenue for both the WMA with the land use fee as well as for the state with a increased license sale. I for one am not to crazy about the whole crossbow deal and how it went down but like most thing if it is tried and there is success from it great and if it fails then we as Kentucky hunters will deal with the consequences from that as well. I just would like to see smaller failures than a larger one that could possible take place.

[Multidigits]

Maybe it is time to start looking at alternatives for if and when some of these WMA's get crowded. Could it possible be as simple as charging for a permit to use the property such as a land use fee. If a change like that was to take place it would probably be a pill that most bowhunters could swallow knowing that even though there is a increase of hunters on a WMA it will be bringing in more revenue for both the WMA with the land use fee as well as for the state with a increased license sale. I for one am not to crazy about the whole crossbow deal and how it went down but like most thing if it is tried and there is success from it great and if it fails then we as Kentucky hunters will deal with the consequences from that as well. I just would like to see smaller failures than a larger one that could possible take place.

Like I said, different subject, but one that is already getting plenty of attention. If you want to help, find a club and join it and get that club into the LKs. It's the best chance we have of getting more, and better WMAs.

As for your feelings for the croosbow, there will be no negatives from it, only positive outcomes. Increased dollars might allow some improvements to the WMAs and certainly increased participation will be a plus for all concerned. For the most part, most people will never encounter a crossbow hunter in "THEIR" woods. The numbers might eventually increase dramaticly, but it'll be a long process.

[XTREME TEAM]

I hope you are right when you say it will be a long process. But only time will tell...
Please excuse my friend Xcutter sometime passion for a sport overrides the control of emotions on a subject. And he is a very passionate person when it comes to bowhunting. Sometimes I too can become very flooded with emotions about a subject exspecially when it comes to a topic such as the one that is mentioned. But who has never done that right......

[Valley Station]

With the F&W's change to include the crossbow as a bow, is it time that we move to "Quota Archery Only" for all of "our" WMA properties to limit impact on the resource??

[gwhilikerz]

With the F&W's change to include the crossbow as a bow, is it time that we move to "Quota Archery Only" for all of "our" WMA properties to limit impact on the resource??
No. Not simply because of xbow use. A quota isn't necessary with a "what if situation". If hunting pressure does increase substantially, then quota hunts are one option. But not until that pressure is clear and not just a knee-jerk reflex because of what we think "might" happen.

[Xcutter]

I hope you are right when you say it will be a long process. But only time will tell...
Please excuse my friend Xcutter sometime passion for a sport overrides the control of emotions on a subject. And he is a very passionate person when it comes to bowhunting. Sometimes I too can become very flooded with emotions about a subject exspecially when it comes to a topic such as the one that is mentioned. But who has never done that right......

At the time I made all of those posts out of anger. The thought of someone using a crossbow on my WMA terrified me!!! I admit thats selfish. Xtreme team you Know as well as i that there is not too many people like us . NO I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT ELITE BOWHUNTERS. We are young sportsmen that have alot more to lose in this then the majority of the people voting for the xbow issue. Its kind of like the seniors in high school voting on something for the future classes. What if 2/3's of the voting class doesn't care???? They won't be affected by it. Ask me if I like to hunt, and I'll tell you no I don't like it but I live it!!! I'm not afraid to admit that my life nearly revolves around hunting. If the cross bow will bennefit the future of deer and turkey hunting great. But if its to make someone a dollar then thumbs down:mad: So did it make me mad when i thought that the future of what i love might be in trouble, Hell yes!!!
I know that the xbow is pretty much a lost battle. I hope everyone has thought there ideas through to the fullest!!!

[Multidigits]

With the F&W's change to include the crossbow as a bow, is it time that we move to "Quota Archery Only" for all of "our" WMA properties to limit impact on the resource??

Most of these WMA are in area with at least a 4 doe limit. Some of the private lands near them receive more pressure than the WMA itself. If the bag limit works on private lands(?) then why not on public???

[Multidigits]

...........Xtreme team you Know as well as i that there is not too many people like us

Yeah right.....only a few thousand or so. There's many that think and do exactly what you do. And that's try to keep others from using "your woods" to hunt. You don't care if they hunt, just as long as they hunt somewhere else. I think your energy could be used better trying to improve hunting instead of driving it back down. Overall, the addition of the crossbow season by the Commission was a bold move. But based on past history, it'll end up a victory for everyone. You'll see soon enough.

[XTREME TEAM]

Thats an easy answer. Most private land is not acessable to thousands of hunters that flood the public lands. Most private land near public land does not recieve more pressure maybe the same or a little bit less for the simple reason that private land hunters near public lands know that the public land recievs alot of hunting pressure and it will push deer to the private land.

[Multidigits]

Thats an easy answer. Most private land is not acessable to thousands of hunters that flood the public lands. Most private land near public land does not recieve more pressure maybe the same or a little bit less for the simple reason that private land hunters near public lands know that the public land recievs alot of hunting pressure and it will push deer to the private land.

95% of the lands are private, most of the hunting happens on private lands. You can check the survey to verify. I've hunted the edge of Yellowbanks many times and have seen deer going both ways into and out of the WMA. It works both ways as for as moving deer.

[Xcutter]

Yeah right.....only a few thousand or so. There's many that think and do exactly what you do. And that's try to keep others from using "your woods" to hunt. You don't care if they hunt, just as long as they hunt somewhere else. I think your energy could be used better trying to improve hunting instead of driving it back down. Overall, the addition of the crossbow season by the Commission was a bold move. But based on past history, it'll end up a victory for everyone. You'll see soon enough.

I had alot more to say but I'll keep it short. Believe what you want about me I don't really care but if you really knew me you would see you are way off!!! And I hope you are right about the Cross bow.

[Duster]

The thought of someone using a crossbow on my WMA terrified me!!!

I was unaware one person owned a entire WMA, Xcutter just how does one go about getting thier own WMA. Heck I want to buy three or four if possable.

[XTREME TEAM]

Multi, Maybe you would like to open up your private land to public hunting and see what that does to your deer herd. I would be the first in line with all my bowhunting buddies and anyone that I could find that could pickup a cross bow and we would be the first in line. So are you going to tell me that you wouldn't try to protect the place that you enjoy hunting on?

[Xcutter]

The thought of someone using a crossbow on my WMA terrified me!!!

I was unaware one person owned a entire WMA, Xcutter just how does one go about getting thier own WMA. Heck I want to buy three or four if possable.

I admitted it was selfish and I also stated that those statements were out of anger in the begining. I just want the best for the future of the sport. And if the cross bow is the way to do it then great. I've said it once and i'll say it again I hope that you guys are right.

[XTREME TEAM]

The thought of someone using a crossbow on my WMA terrified me!!!

I was unaware one person owned a entire WMA, Xcutter just how does one go about getting thier own WMA. Heck I want to buy three or four if possable.

Hey duster, Make an offer to the state tell them it will be a crossbow only hunting are they might be interested.Then they could flood your WMA. And dont take things to literal.

[Xcutter]

Multi, Maybe you would like to open up your private land to public hunting and see what that does to your deer herd. I would be the first in line with all my bowhunting buddies and anyone that I could find that could pickup a cross bow and we would be the first in line. So are you going to tell me that you wouldn't try to protect the place that you enjoy hunting on?

Great point. Not bad for and elite Fawn

[Xcutter]

Hey duster, Make an offer to the state tell them it will be a crossbow only hunting are they might be interested.Then they could flood your WMA. And dont take things to literal.

Right again, man your on a role!!! Afterall thats what its all about is money.

[XTREME TEAM]

Money is the root to all evils. And it is no different here.

[gwhilikerz]

And the left hand talks to the right hand.:)

[XTREME TEAM]

Why dont you come right out with what you are saying here.

[Willie]

Money is the root to all evils. And it is no different here.


There is nothing wrong with money unless you have something against capitalism.

Were you against the compound bows being legalized too when Tom Jennings (Jennings Archery) and Pete Shepley (PSE) campaigned to get them Okd? Gee, do you think that was about furthering archery hunting?

Then maybe you weren’t even around then??

Now are you talking about the money the KDF&WR will get from more hunters?

BTW- It is the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil.

[XTREME TEAM]

There is nothing wrong with money unless you have something against capitalism.

Were you against the compound bows being legalized too when Tom Jennings (Jennings Archery and Pete Shepley (PSE) campaigned to get them Okd? Gee, do you think that was about furthering archery hunting?

Then maybe you weren’t even around then??

Now are you talking about the money the KDF&WR will get from more hunters?

BTW- It is the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil.
Maybe you didn't read a earlier post. I think it is great that the KDFW wants more money. I want them to have more money. But I don't want it to be from poor choices.

Also Crossbows are not illegal. There is a season for crossbows. If they want to make the season longer thats great too. But openning the crossbow season to the entire bow season could be a dramatic change for the deer herds on public land.

Your right I wasn't around then. But I am around now and my voice can be heard now.

[Multidigits]

Multi, Maybe you would like to open up your private land to public hunting and see what that does to your deer herd. I would be the first in line with all my bowhunting buddies and anyone that I could find that could pickup a cross bow and we would be the first in line. So are you going to tell me that you wouldn't try to protect the place that you enjoy hunting on?

I allow others to hunt all my lands, and don't discriminate against non-residents or anyone else for that matter. You and your buddies could well do the same as I do and form yourself a co-op and lease some land. It would be a lot better than bitching about other people using your lands all the time. I hunt public lands also. and put up with ohters all the time. You have to realize your not the King and you just have the privilage to hunt, not keep others from doing so.

[XTREME TEAM]

I allow others to hunt all my lands, and don't discriminate against non-residents or anyone else for that matter. You and your buddies could well do the same as I do and form yourself a co-op and lease some land. It would be a lot better than bitching about other people using your lands all the time. I hunt public lands also. and put up with ohters all the time. You have to realize your not the King and you just have the privilage to hunt, not keep others from doing so.

The number of hunters that go hunting on you private land does not equal the number of hunters that access public land. For Example, lets just say the number of hunters that accessed your land was the same as the number that accesses the public land, the last thing you would want is an additional season that would add more hunters to your land. Would you want this? Would you want your hunting area to have more pressure? Would you want all of this pressure to be applied at one time or to slowly be added. Added in such a way that the deer herd could handle the added pressure. I am not wanting to be the king of the land I just want to be a person that can help in the proper managment of the land. I am not wanting crossbows completly gone. There are hunters out there that enjoy crossbows. Thats great. But jumping head first into a disaster is not the way to go about it.

[Multidigits]

The number of hunters that go hunting on you private land does not equal the number of hunters that access public land. For Example, lets just say the number of hunters that accessed your land was the same as the number that accesses the public land, the last thing you would want is an additional season that would add more hunters to your land. Would you want this? Would you want your hunting area to have more pressure? Would you want all of this pressure to be applied at one time or to slowly be added. Added in such a way that the deer herd could handle the added pressure. I am not wanting to be the king of the land I just want to be a person that can help in the proper managment of the land. I am not wanting crossbows completly gone. There are hunters out there that enjoy crossbows. Thats great. But jumping head first into a disaster is not the way to go about it.

Obviously, your misinformed. Public land hunters are a fraction of the hunters statewide that hunt private lands, and most hunt both. the hunter who only hunts public land is a small minority.

The fact is that the crossbow hasn't created the problem of access to public lands, and it won't make it worse, nor will it make it go away. It's not related to the change the Commission made on March 4th. When you can post some thread of evidence to back up your claims that the crossbow will change the dynamics of who hunts where then you might have a point. You can't because it's simply not true. teh person who decides to use a crossbow will be a segment of the population already using the lands of Ky. Droves of hunters aren't going to flood any area with crossbows? How rediculess can that sound, to think it could happen. We heard all these horror stories in other changes before, and they didn't pan out. e.i. Dogs for fall turkey, fall turkey in Oct., etc.

I'm done arguing the WMA theory. IT's nothing for us to worry about because it's not one of the issues. If you can prove otherwise, bring it on.

[XTREME TEAM]

I guess we will just let it play out and take a look at it after this hunting season. I am done worring about it as well. Multi I hope this doesnt effect the way you view any other post I put on here. Passion on issues is a good thing and I hope we can both be hap