Public Apology

[Darton73]

I want to apologize to everyone on here for the recent exchange between DC and myself regarding KDFWR hiring policy. While I do not make any apologies for WHAT I said, I do apologize for bringing it onto this forum. I also want to clarify that my post had nothing to do with the hiring of Jon Gassett, or Jonathan Day.

Unfortunately, as a result of this exchange, I may have ruined having DC around to answer your questions - that is yet to be seen. DC and myself did continue this discussion via email in a much more civilized manner.



Brian Grossman
Darton73@alltel.net
www.KentuckyHunting.com

[45 Caliber]

Honestly, I would of removed this topic from this site if I was the adminstrator because it dealt with such a sensitive issue. (Just my opinion and others may differ). I work for the government and get criticized quite often by those who don't understand the laws, what I do and why is this and why is that. It's not a good feeling, especially when your decisions are governed by the law. It may not always be right but it's what the law says. What you end up with is bitterness. I commend you on your work and dedication to the site. We can't dwell on our previous mistakes but we can learn from them. I think this site is a good one and you deserve a lot of credit for keeping it maintained.

Many thanks!

[Ynothirekybiologists]

i would like to add we posted this not to cause trouble but to voice our opinion on how things are run at KDFWR. yes this must be a sensitive topic other wise DC and Jon Gassett would not have responded so promptly, this is our opinion and wanted to hear what others had to say. who knows, i might be a long time KDFWR's long time employee expressing to the general public what I feel is going on. We have some excellent biologist, I just feel we need to re-evaluate the hiring process. When I found the biologist position posted on Texas A&M website, I called Mr. Gassett and asked him why it was not on the state site. His response was this is how he was hired and that is how this new biologist would be hired and after they selected candidates they would give them the standard Wildlife Biologist Test in Frankfort. In MY opinion this is very fishy. The candidates should have been pulled directly from the state register and those 5 interviewed, other wise the state register is worthless.
Thanks

[redbone]

I might have missed part of that thread.

But from what I read I didn't see anything way out of line.

But I'm glad to see that you're willing to make ammends and I hope DC will accept.

Brian You provide an invaluable resource to KY hunters with this website, and with the addition of the DC on this site it makes it that much better. I hope the DC will see he is a great addition to this site and contiue his leadership and sharing of knowledge here on these forums.

There will always be differences of opinions, but lets stand together united as hunters and continue on.



Edited by - redbone on 01/24/2002 9:48:19 PM

[Multidigits]

Good post, Dan. I too didn't think the thread was out of line. In fact, I'm glad it surfaced somewhere. Last week, Gasset and Day were both on the Strader show, and I wanted to asked the same question. Problem was, my water heater was out, and I had to put in a new one. Anyway, I was hoping for a new deer man that had Kentucky ties. Someone who has seen the program from the start to the finish. Someone who has worked with Philips in the past and someone who has been in the program at present. David Yancy comes to mind, but I'm sure there are others who were just as qualified as Mr. Day. After all, it doesn't take much to teach someone to say "we need to kill more does" without cracking a smile.

As for DC, I respect him and he knows it, but I do believe someone in his position has to have a bit thicker skin than he appears to have. I also know that he only participates in these forums as a service to us sportsmen and that I applaud. I hope he stays with us.

[Valley Station]

To some of "older guys" todays communication technology is truly amazing.
Kentuckyhunting.com is a "tremendous asset" for all outdoorsmen, those who work for F&W, and those of us who do not. Think of the diversity of knowledge,experience and opinions exchanged from people from one end of Kentucky to other end. Just think , you can find out if elk are bugling in Letcher county or geese are flying at Ballard.
Our F&W friends' personal time is very much appreciated , but, their "question/answer forum" should be on "company time".

[Bowcrazy]

Valley Station is right when he says this question and answer forum should be on F and W 's "company time." It provides valuable feedback BOTH WAYS. In fact it is one of the few options available to get direct answers regarding FW questions and almost the only place that I'm aware of that the Department is getting any substantial broad-based input from the public. Lord knows they don't get it at their Friday morning meetings in Frankfort from the same few people that are able to show up there every three months.

It would be a shame if these public forums don't continue to grow. In the year or so I've been visiting these sites, I've seen a lot of valuable discussion of issues and more than once been influenced by what DC and others had to say. I agree with Multi, I've got a lot of respect for the DC but he needs a little thicker skin. A very good asset for a public servant which I can personally attest to after 20+ years.

[mossyhorns]

DC seems to be fairly thick-skinned. Everyone gives him good-natured heck about his height (or lack thereof) and he takes it with a grin. When he graciously comes on this board, however, to give us the advanced scoop about something coming down the pike, or a behind the scenes look at dept. policy, everyone jumps on him like he was the anti-christ and wants to argue every aspect of KDFWR policy. As a result, DC is reluctant to show up on the board now.

To have a deputy commissioner willing to mix it up with the hunting public on a forum such as this is a rare and special opportunity. Not only has he kept us informed, he has actually presented the side of many posters to the KDFWR and the commissioners.

Bottom line on this is that DC is but one part of the KDFWR scene and isn't personally responsible for everything that is done in Frankfort. DC is a very powerful ally for us as hunters and sportsmen -- a direct link to the top. If we treat DC with the respect and appreciation he deserves from us, I think we will find him and the Dept. more receptive to our concerns and we might possibly discover that the Dept. isn't always wrong on everything.

[INKYHUNTER]

AMEN! Mossyhorns!

[Bowcrazy]

How did we get from an apology to the "Department always wrong on everything"? Kind of took a wide turn there.

[Xtreme]

Let me make an even wider turn here. I know Roy gets his share of A$$ chewings on this site and I will agree, thick skin is required for his job and those like it. God knows I have chewed on him some myself. I only mean to express what I see happening with Deer Management in my neck of the woods.


BUT!!!!, Roy deserves a STANDING OVATION for his efforts and leadership in the school archery project he has going. I was told at the AMO show by some pretty big dawgs that "ole Roy" impressed the heck out of them with his presentation and I understand he came away with a lot of support and goodies for the kids!!

I as well as some others on this site disagree with Roy and some others at times when it comes to Deer Management and I dont apologize for it. And I think that some of the questions and statements about hiring Kentuckians are legitamite questions. I just hope that we can all agree to disagree at times and work for the common good.

DC's not all bad and I wish he would"shake it off" and come back and play!!!

[DC]

If the skin on the bottom of my feet was thicker, I'd be taller! Wow!
I'll admit I didn't much like that thread about hiring. It was far too sensitive to be trying to deal with on a forum like this. I think D73 should be pretty pleased with the turn of events though--he found that even when offended, certain KDFWR types are big enough not to hold a grudge.

It was really cool for this small tater to sit next to some of archery's big guns this past Sun. AM. Met and or at least saw some of my long-time heroes--guys I had only seen pictures of and read about all these years.

The new archery program isn't ready for the press yet but it is coming along GREAT! We're going to enroll 20 schools in the pilot rather than just 10. Then we're after at least half the 213 middle schools in Kentucky. Little ole Kentucky has the chance to change the course of archery participation in our state and the country.

[GSP]

Good to see u back and congrats on the schools. Any chance of getting a Fayette county school involved????
I think if you can get into that "anti"-circle you will have reached a pinnicle in life.

[DC]

I believe we have one in Fayette--Beaumont?

Also one in Louisville, Winchester, Owenton, Hart County, Owensboro, Hazard, Harrodsburg, Whitley County, McCreary County, Pulaski County, and the list goes on!

[Xtreme]

Glad to see ya back Roy!!! The great Will Rodgers once said" if ya take all the fleas off a dog he soon forgets he's a dog" !! Without myself and a few others on here you would feel left out. Ha Ha!!

Seriously though, you are to be commended on your School archery project and I encourage every one in Ky. to get behind you on this.

I work in a school and it's sad to see kids that want to play sports but just aren't physically able. Any one can shoot a bow whether they want to hunt or not. My wife shoots all the time and she loves it but does not hunt.

Once again....Great Job!!!

[Highbow]

Glad to see you back DC, good to hear that the school plan was received very well. As I have said before if needed to do anything to help with this project in my area just ask.
DC, remember you don't have to be tall to stand tall.

[Xtreme]

Well it looks like several of us outspoken, cantankerous old farts have joined hands in welcoming Roy back. I will be the first to make a resolution not to get to offensive on here from now on when it comes to F&W matters. Really the only thing I have ever had a complaint with is unlimited tags and the liberal administration of zone 1 counties. My Co will tell you, and he has known me for years as well as the CO that does the school ed. in dist.4 Roger Coombs, that I have never EVER complained about anything F&W does until this year.

It's easy to get upset over something that is near and dear to your heart. Hunting Whitetails with a bow is dear to mine. If I have offended anyone in the course of this long going argument by the language or terms that I have used I profoundly apologize. I dont apologize for my opinion but I do want this to have a happy ending and having F&W dessert this site is not a happy ending.

I think this site is priceless as far as the info and input regarding all F&W matters are concerned. There is no other way to know whats going on in the state unless you just stay on the road and talk to sportsman. It's obvious that cant happen so this site is the next best thing. For that I thank Brian very much.

F&W needs to hear us as well as us them, there is always 2 sides to any coin. I think for the most part most of the folks that post on here are intelligent responsible human beings and should be treated and considered as such.

My CO said that when I said something about Hardin Cos. deer pop. dropping fast he said alarm bells went off because he agreed as well.He said that when someone who bowhunts as much as me and some of my friends cry WOLF, there is a wolf.

All I ask is to be taken serious and I'm sure the rest of the folks that post on here with their concerns feel the same way, in turn we should not treat F&W disrespectfull either.

I know you cant make everyone happy, I gave up on that a long time ago. I also know that an institute that is as massive as F&W will always have problems. But there is nothing from keeping us from facing these problems and sticking together and as my colleague HIGHBOW stated STAND TALL!!!!!......PEACE.

[Bowcrazy]

You pull this "Archery in the Schools" Project off DC and in a few years everybody is going to be wanting to set next to you at the bowhunting gatherings. Seriously, this could be quite a legacy. Great to see something that everybody can get behind. We can't have shooting sports with guns in schools for obvious reasons. But the transition is normal...... archery....let's see maybe I might just try bowhunting.....hey I like this, what else is there...turkey, waterfowl... I can't think of a better idea for introducing the next generation to the outdoors.

DC I sent you a copy of the mailout I did with information on this project. The feedback has been 100% positive. Let me know what we can do to help when the time comes.

[Bowcrazy]

Xtreme, you beat my post by 30 seconds, but I agree. There are lots of positive things going on in Kentucky. Turkey and Elk programs are wildly successful. I think the fish stocking program has been overlooked and we don't give enough credit to what has been done in this area. You rarely hear anyone complain about small game, waterfowl, dove hunting regs. I think we would all like to be the same place with our deer program. We all want to get there...we just don't always agree on how to get there.....where THERE is.....or sometimes if we're even moving at all. But the very worst thing we can do is quit having an open ongoing discussion about it. Since this is the apology thread, I too apologize if I have offended anyone, but would be willing to bet that in the end we all want the same things. And Xtreme, from one flea to another, that's about enough said I guess.

[coyote1701]

Unfortunately, in this age of electronic communication, it is easy to retain a veil of anonymity and/or portray one's identity falsely for the purpose of advancing one's issues or agendas. In forums, such as this, where members are often in working relationships or have some idea or familiarity with other users identities, it is easy for disgruntled folks to flame one's peers behind an electronic mask, which in some cases can have profound implications (whether malice was intended or not)for those uninvolved. This is unfortunate given the positive exchange of ideas, information, and comaradarie that these forums frequently provide.

It has come to our attention that a user, namely "ynothirekybiologists", profile registers him as "Jimmy Neutron" of the University of Kentucky. Whether this individual has any real affiliation with UK can only possibly be substantiated by the moderator/administrator of the forum who would have access to the internet cookies. Given that two people from UK applied for the recently filled cervid position, this message implies that those applicants or their associates were dissatisfied enough to assume a false identity and fire off a salvo against KDFWR hiring policies and procedures.

First and foremost, let me state that with regards to myself and those associates with whom I'm familiar, our continuing positive, constructive, and working relationship with KDFWR. Second, in response to accusations that the hiring process was unfair, I must disagree. Those position candidates with whom I'm familiar were of strong academic, and in some cases, agency background. The hiring process was competitive, and I have heard no formal complaints about any discretion or bias in the interview process. Those who are experienced in applying for wildlife positions will attest to the fact that the field is very competitive with limited positions available. Indeed, as a former KDFWR employee, I can attest to this fact in that 3 out of 4 of us, as technicians, had M.S. degrees. Inasmuch, to hire mostly home-state-bred and educated would limit the ability of any agency to fill positions with those most qualified, thereby causing potential stagnation of ideas and perpectives that only outside folks can bring. Keep in mind that I was born and still reside in the Commonwealth. Although its nice to work within your homeland, I'd much rather be working for those willing to put aside geographic biases in favor of producing a better product. This is not to say that who you know isn't a big part of the hiring process, it often is, no matter where or what you apply for.

Furthermore, it is my opinion that intra, and perhaps inter-agency or institution policy and bickering should be put aside in favor of educating an increasingly disconnected public that is continuing to lose their connections to the landscape. It is the responsibility of all hunters, outdoor enthusiasts, and those who realize the importance of preserving our dwindling natural resources to put aside their differences in such public forums, express their differences in an appropriate setting, and concentrate on moving the wildlife/hunting/natural resource agenda forward for ourselves and future generations.

[Bowcrazy]

Very interesting coyote. Since this is your first post and no name is listed would you mind telling us who you are and where you are from?

[GSP]

I find the Coyote posting rather ironic myself. At the begining of this post there was some "dirty laundry" hung on the line. This seems to have been resolved by the parties concerned. We now seem to have the same type posting again.
I for one do NOT hide under a "veil of anonymity and/or portray one's identity falsely", nor do I consider myself or people that hang out on this site part of the "increasingly disconnected public that is continuing to lose their connections to the landscape".
I for one feel VERY connected, if not I would not have stayed out until 11:30 last night attending a meeting to hear Comm. Bennett. Unfortantly, this meeting is was like the majority of the meetings that I have attended. They are always, "here is what YOU need to do to help the Dept of F&W". Never are they intended to gather input from the average sportsman. I do realize that such meetings can get "ugly" do to everyones special interest. But the bottom line is the Dept has NO two way dialog with the average sportsman. Maybe that is why you (unknown person)(dept?) have the preception that we (average sportsmen) are "disconnected".
I will now appoligize to this forum for speaking on a subject in a topic area that it did not belong. But unlike Yknot & Coyote, I will sign my name.
Rick Allen

[delaney]

While it is appropriate for sportsmen to be "connected", it is also appropriate, since the agency works for the resource and the sportsmen, for the agency to be "connected" to the sportsmen. Without public input, both supportive input and negative input, the agency cannot function to its maximum effectiveness. Remember, this country wasn't founded on the idea that everyone should "go with the flow". I'm sorry, constructive and challenging comments should be welcomed so long as they are not personal or demeaning. I'm not sure why anyone would get upset over simply being challenged. I'm sure that DC doesn't really mind so long as its not personalized.