3rd Dist Federation Meeting Last Night

[buckfever]

A well-attended 3d dist federation meeting was held last night in Taylorsville. After a few minor points of business, Commissioner Gailor gave a speech and fielded numerous questions from the audience. The question and answer session focused almost exclusively on the recent crossbow season changes.

Two resolutions were voted upon and approved. I don't have the actual wording and vote tally, but here's what they were to the best of my memory:
1. That the 3d Dist Federation is opposed to the recent crossbow season changes and will voice that opposition in the appropriate channels. (the vote on this was something like 76 in favor and 2 opposed).
2. That the 3d Dist Federation would circulate this opposition to the LKS main office and to the member groups of the LKS across KY. (Only 1 person opposed this).

[schuyler olt]

First, I want to commend J.R. Radcliffe on the excellant way he chaired this meeting. Emotions were high, and he did very well to keep matters moving forward and to keep order.

Second, I want to commend Commissioner Gailor. Although I respectfully disagree with his vote, I appreciate the fact that he went into great depth as to why he voted as he did, and he answered a ton of questions, and very few of them were easy.

Third, I want to commend everyone who attended. Although there were a few instances when courtesy slipped or tempers ran high, by and large the questions that were posed were to the heart of the matter.

I would also point out that very few people from UBK attended. I would say that a significant amount were from turkey chapters, and there was a great deal of concern expressed about the strength of the data as it pertained to turkeys.

I don't want to quote specific statements for fear of misquoting. However, I believe that the vast majority would allow some expansion of the season, but that there was nearly absolute unanimity that the process was extremely flawed, and folks were very upset that they weren't able to participate to the extent they think is neccessary.

[buckfever]

Sky - I agree w/ all of your comments (except possibly about the majority being in favor of some type of xbow season expansion), and will add that I thought your remarks at the meeting were excellent.

I also disagree with Commissioner Gailor's recent vote, but I respect the way that he handled himself and fielded questions from an overwhelmingly adverse crowd.

[Multidigits]

Are these emergancy resoulutions???

[Multidigits]

I don't figure you a member of the LKS anyway, so you probably don't even know what a resolution is or how to send one up.

[schuyler olt]

Knock it off, please. No, it is not a resolution. It's purpose is for the April 22d meeting. Obviously, a resolution would be pointless. In addition, this is an action specifically of the 3rd District. Whether other districts or the state follows the 3rd's position is up to them.

Tom, in my remarks last night I spoke of mutual respect. The comments by the posters were respectful of all concerned--it was a difficult and painful meeting for everyone there. There was no laughing going on, I assure you. Please edit that icon and remove it, as I find it personally offensive given the subject matter.

[Multidigits]

Sky, in the past you made a point of defending Jim Lane as a very dedicated biologists who would do nothing to harm the resourse he's tasked to protect. I find it extremely rare that you would do a complete turn around on that assessment at this point? You and I both know that the Saturday opener was far more damaging and had a lot less support than does the crossbow issue, yet your turkey guys did nothing to appeal that decision. Doesn't make much sense, but neither does what happen in the 3rd last night. Seems a little too late to me? We'll see. The smiley is for Ballard. If he removes his smart ass post, I'll pull it off likewise.

[schuyler olt]

I will defend Jim Lane to my dying day. The facts that were brought forth last night was that the only data which had been received was from Ohio, and requested data from Missouri and Georgia hadn't even been received. Moreover, Mr. Gailor hadn't spoken with Jim directly.

[Multidigits]

I doubt that Jim only looked at Ohio. I don't believe that what you heard on that is correct. Overall, crossbow hunters average the same success rates as conventional archery hunters, so the increase in turkey mortality can only increase if the number of turkey hunters increase. That wasn't an issue when you asked for an expanded fall season, and fall motality was not a factor in the spring harvest--according to Jim's data and expertise. In this matter, I'll stick with the old stand by--we should defer to the biologists as to effects on the resourse.

Mr. Gailor had the a same info that the rest of the Commissioners had in front of them. It had all the info that was presented that day. Plus, he obviously has faith in the Dept. employees from Gassett on down to Jim Lane. They said it wouldn't hurt the resourse, so why should Gailor want to argue with that????

[LoweBow]

Sorry I couldn't make the meeting last night. Sounds like I missed a good one. I literally had a last minute emergency. My 6 year old decided to do a superman off the staircase banister as I was heading for the door and I ended up spending the next 3 hours in the Shelbville Hospital Emergency room getting 6 stitches put in his eyebrow. I had plenty to say, but I believe others took my place.
Thanks all for you commitment.
Mike Whelan

[schuyler olt]

Multi,

That was what came out in the meeting AND WAS NOT DISPUTED as to looking at only Ohio. Doubt all you wish, but that's what was said. Mr. Gailor also admitted that he has voted against recommendations of the biologists, including the Saturday opener. If then, why not now?

Keep this in mind about Ohio. Only 20% of the counties are open. There is a 1 bird limit TOTAL, regardless of weapon used. The xbow season is one week and falls AFTER the gun season. I may not be a biologist, but I'm not stupid. There's a reason somebody in Ohio made the decision to put it after, not before. And there's a reason they made it a week, not add 130 days. Answer me this---what has Kentucky forecast will be the number of turkeys killed with a xbow? I'll answer my own question--no such forecast is known to exist.

More importantly, if this is a social issue only, then why not follow the wishes of the majority? The fact is that Allen very forthrightly and very much impressively said that he was recovering from his surgery and because of that had a lot on his plate. As a lawyer, man I understand exactly where he's coming from. So what was the rush?

We have always followed a very sound policy in this state that when it comes to limits, we err on the conservative side. That policy was not followed here.

I specifically asked Mr. Gailor to rescind the regulation change in order to allow the sportsmen to come to consensus among themselves. There are many ways to skin this cat and meet the goals of offering enhanced hunting opportunities, preserving public ground from too much pressure, allowing women and youth increased opportunities and making certain we are not going overboard on harvests, as well as every other goal. We can get to agreement, believe me, without leaving many people with a sour taste in their mouths.

[buckfever]

I will defend Jim Lane to my dying day. The facts that were brought forth last night was that the only data which had been received was from Ohio, and requested data from Missouri and Georgia hadn't even been received. Moreover, Mr. Gailor hadn't spoken with Jim directly.

Sky - I personally spoke with Mr. Lane on March 3d, the day before the Commission meeting, and when I asked him what data he reviewed concerning the impact of an extended fall crossbow season on turkeys, he explicitly told me that the Dept had requested data from Arkansas and Ohio, and that they had ONLY received data from Ohio. I'm sure he looked at other data within Kentucky to determine what level of harvest the KY flock could handle, but Ohio was the only external state data he told me he had received or looked at.

[turk2di]

Not only does a Saturday opener put more killin pressure on birds, but leaving it on a Monday would have shown the grassroots hunters that thier commission does care about them and even bothered to ask thier opinion.

[Bowhunter10]

I have personally contacted numerous Sportsmen’s Clubs in the Eighth District. These Clubs represents over thirteen hundred members. They knew nothing of the crossbow issue and don’t seem very happy with the decision made. Seems that the Sportsmen are getting tired of not being heard. You will hear from the eighth soon.

[buckfever]

Sky - Here's the stats on Ohio's season. It may be a little off, but it's pretty much accurate:

Fall Turkey Hunting is allowed in 2/5 of the counties or 40% of the state (primarily in the south and east).
1 turkey limit in the fall regardless of weapon choice.
The fall gun season runs from something like Oct 15-28. The archery/xbow season followed from Oct 29-Nov 24 (or something like that).

Jim Lane told me that there were only two states that allowed crossbows for turkeys in the fall - Arkansas and Ohio. You mentioned two states - Georgia and Mizzou. Lane didn't mention either to me, but Ga does not have a fall turkey season, and Mizzou doesn't allow xbows for turkeys.

It might have shed some light if Mr. Lane asked for data from the states that don't permit xbows for fall turkeys. It's entirely possible that those states might have found some valid biological reasons for refusing to allow xbows in the fall for turkeys.

[Willie]

"Jim Lane told me that there were only two states that allowed crossbows for turkeys in the fall."

Indiana will be allowing crossbowers to take turkeys this coming fall (new season) in counties where archery turkey hunting will also be allowed.They were already legal for spring turkey hunting.

There will be a formula used from the spring harvest to see which counties will be allowed vertical bow/crossbow ONLY or vertical bow/crossbow and gun.

The vertical bow/crossbow will be for almost the entire month of October with one bird of either sex being allowed.Guns will have a 4 day season in counties that can sustain a fall gun hunt.

I hunt KY and Indiana for turkeys and I can guarantee you that you guys have a LOT more turkeys than we do.

Ohio does not have a fair amount of turkeys, but nowhere near as many as Indiana or KY.

I only turkey hunt the Spring down there and there is a two gobbler limit. Isn’t your fall hunt a two bird of any sex limit? It sure doesn’t sound like the flock is hurting at all. I’d say this is just a big red herring that you guys are throwing up in an attempt to derail the crossbow legalization

KDF&WR - “The success rate on wild turkey in Kentucky now rivals that of the most well known turkey hunting states in the country. Kentucky’s flock now exceeds 200,000 birds and offers superb opportunity.”

[Bowhunter10]

KDF&WR - “The success rate on wild turkey in Kentucky now rivals that of the most well known turkey hunting states in the country. Kentucky’s flock now exceeds 200,000 birds and offers superb opportunity.”


We would like to keep it that way.

[buckfever]

"Jim Lane told me that there were only two states that allowed crossbows for turkeys in the fall."

Ohio does not have a fair amount of turkeys, but nowhere near as many as Indiana or KY.

I’d say this is just a big red herring that you guys are throwing up in an attempt to derail the crossbow legalization

KDF&WR - “The success rate on wild turkey in Kentucky now rivals that of the most well known turkey hunting states in the country. Kentucky’s flock now exceeds 200,000 birds and offers superb opportunity.”


A. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE TOLD ME. Indiana has no data on crossbow impact on turkeys, so I assume that's why Mr. Lane didn't look there.

B. I don't know about Indiana, but here's what Ohio's Turkey director said: "We have a healthy turkey population that we estimate to number between 220,000 to 230,000 birds," Swanson continued. "But we've also had two years in a row of below-average productivity. That means there are about 20-percent fewer younger birds out there."

Ohio apparently has as many if not more turkeys than Kentucky. And Ohio's seasons are what they are, and still, their numbers are down about 17%.

[Xtreme]

A well-attended 3d dist federation meeting was held last night in Taylorsville. After a few minor points of business, Commissioner Gailor gave a speech and fielded numerous questions from the audience. The question and answer session focused almost exclusively on the recent crossbow season changes.

Two resolutions were voted upon and approved. I don't have the actual wording and vote tally, but here's what they were to the best of my memory:
1. That the 3d Dist Federation is opposed to the recent crossbow season changes and will voice that opposition in the appropriate channels. (the vote on this was something like 76 in favor and 2 opposed).
2. That the 3d Dist Federation would circulate this opposition to the LKS main office and to the member groups of the LKS across KY. (Only 1 person opposed this).

Now THAT was almost unanimous:eek: WAKE UP COMMISSIONER GAILOR AND DO WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DO AND THAT IS.....REPRESENT YOUR DAMN CONSTITUENTS!!!!!!!!!

[Xtreme]

First, I want to commend J.R. Radcliffe on the excellant way he chaired this meeting. Emotions were high, and he did very well to keep matters moving forward and to keep order.

Second, I want to commend Commissioner Gailor. Although I respectfully disagree with his vote, I appreciate the fact that he went into great depth as to why he voted as he did, and he answered a ton of questions, and very few of them were easy.

Third, I want to commend everyone who attended. Although there were a few instances when courtesy slipped or tempers ran high, by and large the questions that were posed were to the heart of the matter.

I would also point out that very few people from UBK attended. I would say that a significant amount were from turkey chapters, and there was a great deal of concern expressed about the strength of the data as it pertained to turkeys.

I don't want to quote specific statements for fear of misquoting. However, I believe that the vast majority would allow some expansion of the season, but that there was nearly absolute unanimity that the process was extremely flawed, and folks were very upset that they weren't able to participate to the extent they think is neccessary.

This whole process was extremely flawed? That is an x-treme understatement:mad:

[Multidigits]

Now THAT was almost unanimous:eek: WAKE UP COMMISSIONER GAILOR AND DO WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO DO AND THAT IS.....REPRESENT YOUR DAMN CONSTITUENTS!!!!!!!!!

X-- The debate portion of the issue is over with, We're now in the appeal process stage. Wonder if the fellow that lied to Gailor was voting?

The process is flawed. It's the same process that's been in place for ever, and has been used in ever decision they've ever made. It's not the Commissions fault that the sportsmen don't give a flip and don't get involved.

Sky-- Your talking out of both sides of your mouth. One side is saying Lane is doing us a good job, the other side is saying he's incompetent in his duties. Maybe we need to look at the fall season again. We surely don't need two of them. Either we have enough turkeys to hunt them in the fall or we don't. Guns kill far more than bows combined with crossbows ever will.

[Multidigits]

Multi,

That was what came out in the meeting AND WAS NOT DISPUTED as to looking at only Ohio. Doubt all you wish, but that's what was said. Mr. Gailor also admitted that he has voted against recommendations of the biologists, including the Saturday opener. If then, why not now?

Keep this in mind about Ohio. Only 20% of the counties are open. There is a 1 bird limit TOTAL, regardless of weapon used. The xbow season is one week and falls AFTER the gun season. I may not be a biologist, but I'm not stupid. There's a reason somebody in Ohio made the decision to put it after, not before. And there's a reason they made it a week, not add 130 days. Answer me this---what has Kentucky forecast will be the number of turkeys killed with a xbow? I'll answer my own question--no such forecast is known to exist.

More importantly, if this is a social issue only, then why not follow the wishes of the majority? The fact is that Allen very forthrightly and very much impressively said that he was recovering from his surgery and because of that had a lot on his plate. As a lawyer, man I understand exactly where he's coming from. So what was the rush?

We have always followed a very sound policy in this state that when it comes to limits, we err on the conservative side. That policy was not followed here.

I specifically asked Mr. Gailor to rescind the regulation change in order to allow the sportsmen to come to consensus among themselves. There are many ways to skin this cat and meet the goals of offering enhanced hunting opportunities, preserving public ground from too much pressure, allowing women and youth increased opportunities and making certain we are not going overboard on harvests, as well as every other goal. We can get to agreement, believe me, without leaving many people with a sour taste in their mouths.

When you asked for a fall season--what was the forecast kill? And then we got two fall seasons instead of one. And a two bird either sex limit. Yet you said the flock could handle it then. Archery doesn't impact the flock and you know it. Last year less than 900 total, mostly hens. Gobblers are not effected on iota. Crossbow harvests mirrow the archery harvest in all states that allow their use. Ask Jim Lane and he'll verify.

[Xtreme]

X-- The debate portion of the issue is over with, We're now in the appeal process stage. Wonder if the fellow that lied to Gailor was voting?

The process is flawed. It's the same process that's been in place for ever, and has been used in ever decision they've ever made. It's not the Commissions fault that the sportsmen don't give a flip and don't get involved.

Sky-- Your talking out of both sides of your mouth. One side is saying Lane is doing us a good job, the other side is saying he's incompetent in his duties. Maybe we need to look at the fall season again. We surely don't need two of them. Either we have enough turkeys to hunt them in the fall or we don't. Guns kill far more than bows combined with crossbows ever will.

Although I was not at the meeting I was told that Gailor admitted to having more calls against than for xbows. This in my mind was sportsmen being involved and.......basically ignored.:mad:

I'm sure this is not the only case where constituents have been ignored. Do you agree?

[Multidigits]

As far as I'm concerned the survey was the main factor. Gailor's smart enough to know that the UBK pulled the calls out and that they all didn't come from his constituents , same as the other commissioners that made the same comment.In the past, commissioners have made decisions when they recieved NO calls, would you have them not vote on that issue when that happens? They are selected to vote how they feel is the best for the whole. They are not bound by any constituent or org. sich as the UBK or LKS.

[Xtreme]

As far as I'm concerned the survey was the main factor. Gailor's smart enough to know that the UBK pulled the calls out and that they all didn't come from his constituents , same as the other commissioners that made the same comment.In the past, commissioners have made decisions when they recieved NO calls, would you have them not vote on that issue when that happens? They are selected to vote how they feel is the best for the whole. They are not bound by any constituent or org. sich as the UBK or LKS.

Aint democracy grand:D

[Xtreme]

As far as I'm concerned the survey was the main factor. Gailor's smart enough to know that the UBK pulled the calls out and that they all didn't come from his constituents , same as the other commissioners that made the same comment.In the past, commissioners have made decisions when they recieved NO calls, would you have them not vote on that issue when that happens? They are selected to vote how they feel is the best for the whole. They are not bound by any constituent or org. sich as the UBK or LKS.

A second thought here:

A. It was noted that most of the folks in attendance at this meeting were NOT UBK members but just plain hunters concerned.

B. So I guess the 76 to 2 vote AGAINST the xbow law as was voted on by the commission was not by third district constituents?

C. The system worked here as these folks showed up to voice their opinions. Granted it was a meeting too late but.........appeal? Also spare me the woe and gloom prophecies of the appeals process. In 1933 Adolph Hitler finagled [I know I spelled that wrong] his way into enacting the "enabaling act".

This basically wiped out all democratic processes to include appeals by common citizens.:eek:

Sorry, I just had to add these thoughts.:o

[turk2di]

I have been a menber of Cyberhunters and the LKS for only a year or so. Now that i belong to a involved group, i realize how little my opinion and that of all hunters was valued by the Commissioners, or even sought. Perhaps we need to push for a more inclusive effort by the Commissioners, as in a required by law to do so. Public forums?

[Multidigits]

...............................................A second thought here:

A. It was noted that most of the folks in attendance at this meeting were NOT UBK members but just plain hunters concerned. We know what's going on to find support against the issue. We believe it should have been done during the normal time frame as in the past decades or so. We'll see if the Commission agrees with us. If your honest, you'll admit that most people don't care, one way or the other. That's because they won't be effected in any negative way. We know that and so does the commission.

B. So I guess the 76 to 2 vote AGAINST the xbow law as was voted on by the commission was not by third district constituents? Who knows??? who watched the door? What does it matter, the vote needed to be taken at the last meeting, not this one. At the Feb. meeting, the vote would have been more equal, because most people couldn't have cared less what happened.

C. The system worked here as these folks showed up to voice their opinions. Granted it was a meeting too late but.........appeal? Also spare me the woe and gloom prophecies of the appeals process. In 1933 Adolph Hitler finagled [I know I spelled that wrong] his way into enacting the "enabaling act". Heil Hitler don't have a thing to do with it. I'm sure had the crossbow people wanted to show up in strength, we could have. We'll stick with the normal process for now and play that out.

This basically wiped out all democratic processes to include appeals by common citizens.:eek: I don't have a problem with an appeal or the appeal process. We'll play by the rules of the game. You side will too. In the end, one side will win, the other side will lose. Overall, the whole will be weaker.

Sorry, I just had to add these thoughts.:o

[Multidigits]

I have been a menber of Cyberhunters and the LKS for only a year or so. Now that i belong to a involved group, i realize how little my opinion and that of all hunters was valued by the Commissioners, or even sought. Perhaps we need to push for a more inclusive effort by the Commissioners, as in a required by law to do so. Public forums?

Public forums is how it's done in Indiana. It takes 3 years to enact a change of any sort. Doesn't work well. Be sure in what you ask for. A better plan might be to limit the lobbys that make secret deals behind closed doors, such as with the fall turkey season a few years ago. Others have happened as well. There's nothing wrong with the system we have. What's wrong with itis that sportsmen don't get involved until it's too late. Had all groups and individuals been working on this in the normal time fram, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[schuyler olt]

First and foremost:

There should not even be the first hint of a suggestion that the was anything untoward about the voting. Everyone signed in, non-member clubs were required to fill out the paperwork and pay before any votes were taken, clubs were limited to 5 votes per club as per the bylaws, all questions that arose were directed to Fred Kirsch, a former President of the League, the total number of potential votes were determined and verified by Kent Cooper, and voting was done by raised hand. Heck, I'll bet I knew 95% of the people there on a first-name basis.

The turkey issue is secondary, although many knowledgeable, long-time turkey hunters had grave concerns about the potential mortality and that there wasn't enough data to support this large of a season expansion.

Here was the real point on which I think everyone agreed--Big decisions should not be made until the sportsmen have a realistic opportunity to study the issue and provide input, whatever the issue is. This proposal originated with department staff at a committee meeting and was voted on 30 days later by the commission. If we do not object to this sort of procedure and timing, what do we say if they used it to sell off a WMA, such as Auxier Flats, for example?

Even a parking ordinance must be read at two seperate meetings. I believe a bill must be read three times before passage. I'm NOT saying this procedure is inappropriate for the bulk of the department's work. Our commissioners are bright guys with boatloads of common sense, and I'm confident they know a "hot button" issue--in that case they need to give more time.

Once again, I have known Allen Gailor for over twenty years personally and professionally. He is a good and decent man, and I have no doubt whatsoever that he voted his conscience. Unfortunately, his position is in sharp contrast to the 3rd District Federations, and I don't envy him being in that position. I also have no doubt that he will heavily and carefully weigh what was said in good faith and take that into consideration when he votes on the 22d.

And again, I commend him on his demeanor and candor Wednesday night. I may disagree with him on this issue, but I think he did an outstanding job before a concerned group of sportsmen, who in the main equally did an outstanding job of voicing their concerns.

[Multidigits]

I've watched alan vote on several issues in the last few years. I suspect he'll vote as he has in the past. And that will be for what's best for the KYDFWR. In this case, this is a no brainer. Financially, it'll strengthen the bottom line. Resource wise, it causes no harm. Oppurtunity increase--tremendous.


And I also expect several of the other NO votes to back the others on any revote on the 22nd. We'll see???

[Willie]

We would like to keep it that way.

Then you should worry more about shotguns than crossbows.

In states that allow crossbows the deer kill percentages for crossbow is equal to the compound bows.

I wouldn't think that would be any different for hunting fall turkeys.

The present archers aren't exactly decimating the fall flock are they.?

No, see this as a smoke screen to use against the crossbows.

[Willie]

"A. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE TOLD ME. Indiana has no data on crossbow impact on turkeys, so I assume that's why Mr. Lane didn't look there."


No.. What you said is - "Jim Lane told me that there were only two states that allowed crossbows for turkeys in the fall."

I only corrected you and Jim in the fact that Indiana will allow fall crossbow hunting for turkeys beginning this fall.

While it is true we have no data as the season is brand new this year all I am trying to get across is that another state besides the ones mentioned are allowing fall turkey hunting with a crossbow.

Indiana stepped out and allowed crossbows and I'm quite sure we have less birds than you do as we can only kill one gobbler in the spring and one either sex IN SELECTED COUNTIES in the Fall (brand new season)..

[Walt K]

QUOTE-Multidigits- “It's my understanding that the push is to BYPASS the Commission and go over their head to the Gov and Legislature or Mr. Host of Commerce. Hard to imagine a group like the UBK who has helped with Commission decisions many times now showing disrespect by doing an end run around them. Folks, wheather you like the change or not, the Commission process has been in place for many years, Tried and tested, it's better than using what some other states use. To have the legilatur and Gov decide are deer seasons is asking for serious trouble. for example, three young men died this week from a car wreck caused by a deer. Let's say the legislature decides there are too many deer in that area and has a spring or summer deer reduction slaughter. Think hard before you make those calls being urged by the bow group and the Louisville Lip on WHAS 84.If someone in an official position finds any untruth in this post and can send me where my info is wrong, I'll be more than happy to delete this post.”

QUOTE- Multidigits- “I don't have a problem with an appeal or the appeal process. We'll play by the rules of the game. You side will too. In the end, one side will win, the other side will lose. Overall, the whole will be weaker.”

QUOTE-Multidigits- “Sky-- Your talking out of both sides of your mouth.”

Obviously you do have a problem with the appeal process. So who’s talking out of both sides of their mouth?

btw..ask Jim Lane what he thinks specifically of the fate of longbeards in the state...he won't tell you that there's plenty of resource there

[Willie]

........btw..ask Jim Lane what he thinks specifically of the fate of longbeards in the state...he won't tell you that there's plenty of resource there

Will he say that the crossbows will have a more negative impact on the flock than the fall archery and gun seasons?

Since the crossbows and vertical bows have almost identical success ratios, ranges, trajectory, etc I find it rather hard to believe that the impact on turkeys OR deer will be any greater than the present day compounds.

[Multidigits]

QUOTE-Multidigits- “It's my understanding that the push is to BYPASS the Commission and go over their head to the Gov and Legislature or Mr. Host of Commerce. Hard to imagine a group like the UBK who has helped with Commission decisions many times now showing disrespect by doing an end run around them. Folks, wheather you like the change or not, the Commission process has been in place for many years, Tried and tested, it's better than using what some other states use. To have the legilatur and Gov decide are deer seasons is asking for serious trouble. for example, three young men died this week from a car wreck caused by a deer. Let's say the legislature decides there are too many deer in that area and has a spring or summer deer reduction slaughter. Think hard before you make those calls being urged by the bow group and the Louisville Lip on WHAS 84.If someone in an official position finds any untruth in this post and can send me where my info is wrong, I'll be more than happy to delete this post.”

QUOTE- Multidigits- “I don't have a problem with an appeal or the appeal process. We'll play by the rules of the game. You side will too. In the end, one side will win, the other side will lose. Overall, the whole will be weaker.”

QUOTE-Multidigits- “Sky-- Your talking out of both sides of your mouth.”

Obviously you do have a problem with the appeal process. So who’s talking out of both sides of their mouth?

btw..ask Jim Lane what he thinks specifically of the fate of longbeards in the state...he won't tell you that there's plenty of resource there

Elitist, here's the facts. There's plenty of longbeards in this state. Fall archers kill mostly hens--crossbow hunters will do the same. As for killing too many gobblers in the spring, it's possible. We're close that that now. And crossbow isn't a factor in the spring seasons. Lane will tell you that the fall harvest is not a factor in spring populations. Thats why we have TWO shotgun seasons instead of just one.

Elitist-Like I said, I don't have a problem with an appeal. What you and your blow buddies wanted was a end move around the appeal process by calling the Gov. and Host. You can buy the DVD from Strader if you don't remember.

Do the appeal, it won't be another debate. The debate is over. Appeal all you want. Like I said, play by the rules we've always played by. And stop whining and act your age for a changehttp://forum.gon.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

My cooment about Sky talking out of both sides of his mouth is out of context. Sky has praised Jim Lane on several occasions, now he wants us to believe his work is crap. In teh past, when Jim Lane agreed to work with him on the fall season change, his word was gospel. Amazing how time changes so quickly.

[Walt K]

Elitist? don't think so.. I hunt with compound, recurve, .44 mag pistol, and a .243. I just know that weapons need separation in the seasons..that's been my stance the entire time. And on some of your other posts.. you give WAY too much credit to UBK. It was the non-member bowhunters who really rang those commissioner phones...we just put the word out best we could, which wasn't good enough obviously as the more bowhunters (and turkey hunters) who hear that this happened, the more are reacting to what was a railroad ram through the commisson with very little thought. And you know that.

[Multidigits]

The procedure on this change was the exact same as all the other changes we've had. Is it the UBK's position that the Commission runs a railroad? That should go over very good. As one of your members has plans to do, all of these comments are subject to be sent to them for their review. Go ahead and spell it out.

As for elitist, I guess that was an error. A better choice would be elitist attitude. That too has been noticed by more than one Commissioner.

[Xtreme]

The procedure on this change was the exact same as all the other changes we've had. Is it the UBK's position that the Commission runs a railroad? That should go over very good. As one of your members has plans to do, all of these comments are subject to be sent to them for their review. Go ahead and spell it out.

As for elitist, I guess that was an error. A better choice would be elitist attitude. That too has been noticed by more than one Commissioner.

Webster defines elite as the choise or best of a group or the like. That means those who practice days on end and do not want the bar lowered. There are those who are elite involved in archery, muzzleloading, pistols, rifles and yes xbows.

Webster also defines the word dedicate: To set apart and consecrate to a deity or sacred purpose.

How many of the above groups are as dedicated as bowhunters? How many shoot their weapons year around just to stay on top of the sport.

Elite ?, no. Green Berets, Navy Seals, Marine Force Recon, Airborne, Air Assault, British SAS, German GSG9 and any other person who lays it all out for their country and their comrades are elite.

Bowhunters are just passionately dedicated.;)

[Multidigits]

Yeah, and as more than one commissioner told me very selfish. Look that one up and tell me it doesn't have your pals name all over it.

And if you think all bowhunters shoot all year round, then your dreaming. I know many rifle and pistol shooters that shoot more rounds than you do arrows in a year. Not counting the thousands of trap and skeet shells shot each year.

I know deer hunters that are scouting while your shooting 3-D. I've known coonhunters that hunted 7 nights a week while working a 40 hour week.

I've never known any of these elitist folks not want to share in the weath, except bowhunters.

From Websters: elit·ism http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?elitis02.wav=elitism')) http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?elitis01.wav=elitism'))
Pronunciation: A-'lE-"ti-z&m, i-, E-
Function: noun
1 : leadership or rule by an elite (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=elite)
2 : the selectivity of the elite (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=elite); especially : SNOBBERY (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=snobbery+)1 <elitism in choosing new members>
3 : consciousness of being or belonging to an elite (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=elite)


Check out that S word. :)

[Dalebow]

I know I shoot my bow every single day, got a great backyard 3-d range, and a basement range.


Multi: I pose one question, you and other x-bow pro guys are using the "survey" to say it's what Ky sportsman wanted. Well to me and I may be wrong with my education and common sense, but a survey that was only sent to 13% of the total population that hunts isn't a good representation of the whole. Now I know I only have a BSN in Chemistry and one in Nursing and a Masters in Nursing and only took about 5 math classes that looked at this kind of stuff, but if anybody used a survey that only represented 13% of 100% of a body you would not have a job, business, or any $$ in the bank. Mr. Gailor ( might not have spelled his name right)
said himself that the total survey was 13% of the total sprotsman in ky and that is not a good representation. If 100% of 13% voted for the x-bow on that survey it still would only be 13% of the total and it was no where near 100%. I think we are seeing the true thoughts of the sportsman now that word has gotten out. There were 7 of us at the meeting March 23 that belong to UBK and being a statewied organization with no local chapeter we could not vote and the outcome shows you who really didn't want this. 70 something to 2, now that's a survey:-)

Also as stated before I would dispell the rumors of Multi and a second violation and to date I have found that this rumor was that and just a rumor. I have informed the person that told me of this that there was only the one in public record.

Yours truly: an elite bowhunter, Dale

[Xtreme]

Yeah, and as more than one commissioner told me very selfish. Look that one up and tell me it doesn't have your pals name all over it.

And if you think all bowhunters shoot all year round, then your dreaming. I know many rifle and pistol shooters that shoot more rounds than you do arrows in a year. Not counting the thousands of trap and skeet shells shot each year.

I know deer hunters that are scouting while your shooting 3-D. I've known coonhunters that hunted 7 nights a week while working a 40 hour week.

I've never known any of these elitist folks not want to share in the weath, except bowhunters.

From Websters: elit·ism http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript<img%20src=&quot;images/smilies/tongue.gif&quot;%20border=&quot;0&quot;%20alt=&quot;&quot;%20title=&quot;Stick%2 0Out%20Tongue&quot;%20smilieid=&quot;5&quot;%20class=&quot;inlineimg&quot;% 20/>opWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?elitis02.wav=elitism')) http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif (http://javascript<img%20src=&quot;images/smilies/tongue.gif&quot;%20border=&quot;0&quot;%20alt=&quot;&quot;%20title=&quot;Stick%2 0Out%20Tongue&quot;%20smilieid=&quot;5&quot;%20class=&quot;inlineimg&quot;% 20/>opWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?elitis01.wav=elitism'))
Pronunciation: A-'lE-"ti-z&m, i-, E-
Function: noun
1 : leadership or rule by an elite (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=elite)
2 : the selectivity of the elite (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=elite); especially : SNOBBERY (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=snobbery+)1 <elitism in choosing new members>
3 : consciousness of being or belonging to an elite (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=elite)


Check out that S word. :)

I know gun shooters who shoot more bullets than arrows as well and believe it or not I am probably one of them. I shoot several hundred rounds of 22 a year but it is just for fun. I squirrel hunt with a 22 and I have folks ask me why I don't hunt them with a shot gun.

Two reasons:

a. A rifle does not shoot up the meat as bad as a shot gun.

b. A rifle is more of a challenge.

Snobbery?, nah I just like to take the high road. I killed hundreds of squirrels with a shot gun when I was a kid. I also hunted with a .22 I settled with the .22 My .22 does have a scope:D I am just a slight snob as I like my compound as well.:eek:


Snobbery is more a British term if you will. I'm more of a fighting Irishman

Snob: a person who imitates, cultivates, or slavishly admires social superiors and is condescending to others.

Not me, I'm just a red neck that likes to get close to critters:D

[Multidigits]

I know I shoot my bow every single day, got a great backyard 3-d range, and a basement range.


Multi: I pose one question, you and other x-bow pro guys are using the "survey" to say it's what Ky sportsman wanted. Well to me and I may be wrong with my education and common sense, but a survey that was only sent to 13% of the total population that hunts isn't a good representation of the whole. Now I know I only have a BSN in Chemistry and one in Nursing and a Masters in Nursing and only took about 5 math classes that looked at this kind of stuff, but if anybody used a survey that only represented 13% of 100% of a body you would not have a job, business, or any $$ in the bank. Mr. Gailor ( might not have spelled his name right)
said himself that the total survey was 13% of the total sprotsman in ky and that is not a good representation. If 100% of 13% voted for the x-bow on that survey it still would only be 13% of the total and it was no where near 100%. I think we are seeing the true thoughts of the sportsman now that word has gotten out. There were 7 of us at the meeting March 23 that belong to UBK and being a statewied organization with no local chapeter we could not vote and the outcome shows you who really didn't want this. 70 something to 2, now that's a survey:-)

Also as stated before I would dispell the rumors of Multi and a second violation and to date I have found that this rumor was that and just a rumor. I have informed the person that told me of this that there was only the one in public record.

Yours truly: an elite bowhunter, Dale


It's a scientific survey. Nobody ever surveys the whole--too expensive. Scientific surveys are considered accurate. Gassett explained that at the Commission meeting.

Dispute the survey all you want, it won't do you any good.

I talked to a fellow today at Ft. Knox that was also there. He reports that the meeting was hot and that most probably felt pressured to vote how they did. He said he voted with them even though he uses a crossbow now and is for the change. His NWTF chapter felt like they were ignored by not getting the process delayed. The 3rd district is no doubt the states most populated area, barr none. 72 people from the whole district is far less than 13%. I'll stick with the survey.

Man, that's great news about the 2nd violation. I was really sweating it.

[Multidigits]

I know gun shooters who shoot more bullets than arrows as well and believe it or not I am probably one of them. I shoot several hundred rounds of 22 a year but it is just for fun. I squirrel hunt with a 22 and I have folks ask me why I don't hunt them with a shot gun.

Two reasons:

a. A rifle does not shoot up the meat as bad as a shot gun.

b. A rifle is more of a challenge.

Snobbery?, nah I just like to take the high road. I killed hundreds of squirrels with a shot gun when I was a kid. I also hunted with a .22 I settled with the .22 My .22 does have a scope:D I am just a slight snob as I like my compound as well.:eek:


Snobbery is more a British term if you will. I'm more of a fighting Irishman

Snob: a person who imitates, cultivates, or slavishly admires social superiors and is condescending to others.

Not me, I'm just a red neck that likes to get close to critters:D

Now your one of us. You can shoot squirrels with several weapons. Get a crossbow and it'll be one more. We just want the oppurtunity to use what we want to choose. The animals belong to the state, the days of the year belong to each of us, not the UBK. Some of us may not have many of them left, so why wait? We won't ask to limit your choice of what you want to hunt with, you do the same for us. See how easy that can be???

[Xtreme]

Now your one of us. You can shoot squirrels with several weapons. Get a crossbow and it'll be one more. We just want the oppurtunity to use what we want to choose. The animals belong to the state, the days of the year belong to each of us, not the UBK. Some of us may not have many of them left, so why wait? We won't ask to limit your choice of what you want to hunt with, you do the same for us. See how easy that can be???

Your a mess:D It's good to see the kinder, gentler multi back in action.

Now that I've got you using the dictionary you will be more tenacious than ever:eek:

It's my bedtime. I'll joust with you later. Have a good weekend.:D

[Dalebow]

I don't expect the disputing of the survey to do me anygood, thanks anyway.

But its shows the lack of involvement the sportsman got to use in this decision. You can quote one person who says "I was Pressured" boo, hoo!

The survey does not represent the majority and in a little while you will see those people represented in their beliefs on this matter.

Either way, the next time they railroad something down our throats it may be something against your beliefs and you should be among those upset at the way this was done, but people who want something like it when it goes your way, but next time it may not.

[Dalebow]

Oh I forgot: An elite bowhunter, Dale

[Willie]

The suvey is a LOT more accurate than getting a very vocal minority to show up at a meeting..

You poo-poo several thousand responses to a scientific poll (look at the margin of error), but hang your hat on 70 people that show up to a meeting??

Now step back and take a logical look at that.

What do you REALLY see?

[Multidigits]

I don't expect the disputing of the survey to do me anygood, thanks anyway.

But its shows the lack of involvement the sportsman got to use in this decision. You can quote one person who says "I was Pressured" boo, hoo!

The survey does not represent the majority and in a little while you will see those people represented in their beliefs on this matter.

Either way, the next time they railroad something down our throats it may be something against your beliefs and you should be among those upset at the way this was done, but people who want something like it when it goes your way, but next time it may not.

The railroad comment by the UBK is getting a lot of use. I'm sure the Commissioners will delight from that one.

Learn the rules, and play by the rules.....it's a pretty simple why of doing business.

[Dalebow]

we are and that's why you will lose:-)

An elite bowhunter: Dale

[Dalebow]

Willie
"several thousand people" doesn't matter how many thousand still only 13% of the total and there are many more than that against this.
The question read: DO you mind crossbows in the archery season? Well no, they have their days in december already and it doesn't bother me, but ask a truthful question: Do you mind crossbows in the entire archery season? I will hang my hat on that one. You guys also spouted all this Ohio regulations and laws yet failed to mention the One gobbler for most of ohio and such.

Anyway, turned out to be a great day to shoot a 3-d shoot;-)

An elite bowhunter: Dale

[Xtreme]

If commissioner Gailor is not willing to stand up for his constituents then he needs to go and let some one who does take his place.

It's time we sport'smen have a say in who really does represent us. Republican or Democrat be damned!!!!! We need folks on the commission who walk the walk and damn the talk.

Saturday commission and committee meetings will free up a lot of good young and COMMON talent. What is there to hide by not having saturday meetings:confused:

It is time the common user be allowed to speak!:eek:

[Multidigits]

If commissioner Gailor is not willing to stand up for his constituents then he needs to go and let some one who does take his place.

It's time we sport'smen have a say in who really does represent us. Republican or Democrat be damned!!!!! We need folks on the commission who walk the walk and damn the talk.

Saturday commission and committee meetings will free up a lot of good young and COMMON talent. What is there to hide by not having saturday meetings:confused:

It is time the common user be allowed to speak!:eek:

The survey represented what the sportsman wanted done. Most of them didn't care about the issue. The survey and other factors made his vote the right one. I admire him for standing his ground over a few loud mouths that disagree.

[Willie]

Willie
"several thousand people" doesn't matter how many thousand still only 13% of the total and there are many more than that against this.
The question read: DO you mind crossbows in the archery season? Well no, they have their days in december already and it doesn't bother me, but ask a truthful question: Do you mind crossbows in the entire archery season?

I was going to answer this one but Swamper beat me to it. I'm glad he did as he put it in MUCH better terms than I could have.

Is 76 highly motivated people a higher percentage of the hunting populatuion than the several thousand that cared enough to send back their surveys??

But, I have to ask - Are you really that hung up on them leaving the word "entire" out of the question?

Is not the entire "archery season" just called "archery season"?

No, you guys are grasping at all the straws you can..

[Willie]

An elite bowhunter: Dale

FYI....


Quote - Most of us will never have any major problem with the various clubs, groups, or other types of organizations that we join. However every once in a very great while, you just might find yourself dealing with a group that is so 'different', as to deserve special commentary. It is that minority who believes they are all powerful, all respected, self-appointed to rule their little niche in the world. So extreme of view you'd think they were the FBI or CIA... or other such.

No, they aren't that powerful in reality... they are merely the elitist.

Definition of “elitism” (source: American Heritage Dictionary)...

1) The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

2a) The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.

2b) Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

When an elitist person, or group of persons, develop a rigid concept of, and a faith in, their own superiority based in egotism rather than majority opinions... and when that biased opinion of superiority goes to such extreme that the individual(s) involved positions themselves as having obtained inviolate sanctity of their actions... therein comes into existence out of that extreme opinion, an entrenched dogma that is held to be above question, reproach, or critical review.

Said elitist opinion has now devolved into the arrogance of a sanctimonious stance, that further devolves within that person(s)’s sphere of influence to a psychological atmosphere of paranoia and an extreme need of self-preservation that is disproportionate to the reality.

Then is such atmosphere and need for self-preservation and paranoia... is ‘war’ declared on any and all whose own opinions differ from the elitist. Those who do not support the elitist(s), those who dare to think for themselves and form their own opinions separate from and opposing of the elitist(s)... are then the ‘enemy’ to be ‘destroyed’ by whatever means at hand.

There is now a willingness, even an eagerness to initiate attack and battle when in fact, none need be fought. Gone is the capacity for peaceful interaction. Gone are concepts of friendship, respect, and civility. There is a grasping for total and complete control, submission, and otherwise domination over all other persons that come into contact with the elitist(s).

Gone too from such a person is the influence of spirituality that has long fled in the face of such extreme of heightened self-opinion and need for domination. Often such elitist stances are worse than mere arrogance but based in the intolerance of bigotry and androcentrism.

Such person(s) can be reduced to the example of the child who while being “a big fish in a little pond” in the lower grades and small, local schools, but then finds themselves as “a little fish in a big pond” in the advanced grades in bigger schools. Those children who refuse to adapt or cannot adapt are like the elitist... they can not comprehend why others do not share their own view of supremacy.

Indeed in this frustration and incomprehension for such lack of respect and recognition the person feels they are deserving of, such can result in bullying and other negative actions and tactics. Bullying and threats can lead to the opposite consequences but the person just has no ability to comprehend such. At the most benign childish bullying can be taught as inappropriate and punished as a means of curbing such destructive behavior before it gets out of hand. In the elitists adult however, it can lead to a belief that no ethic or moral is so important it can’t be ignored and/or broken in the defense of the elitist’s stance of self-importance... which in truth only exists in the mind of the afflicted.

It is simply beyond the comprehension of such persons, that in fact they are not “king of the hill”. That the only one with such elevated esteem for them, is their own Self. In their separation from reality, there is no question they are elite... after-all, they have declared it so.

At this point of extreme opinion there becomes extreme action based on that opinion. And now any and all positive good done by this person(s) is neutralized by the lies, deception, underhanded and insidious behavior the person has resorted to in defense of their position. They do not realize there is now the growing demonstration on their part, that their example is proving just the opposite of the respect they demand and feel they deserve... but in fact, they are demonstrating how unworthy of respect they truly are.

The danger then is not the damage such a person(s) can do to you but that you allow such a person’s threats and bullying to upset your own peace of mind and sense of well-being. If you have lived a reputable style that is deserving of respect, then the intelligent people around you will not be dissuaded of that respect earned by the chastisements and reprimands of the elitist. There is of course a real danger to the average person who is in the influence of the elitist. Such person(s) run the real risk of damaged reputation because of their association. This may not be fair to them but then again, if they do not collectively move to remedy such situation then they are guilty for enabling the elitist by their inaction and/or silence.


Self responsibility. Self-accountability.

As Granny put it simply but truly, “if you lie with dogs, you get up with fleas.”

Now and then the circumstance arises that you discover that the group you have joined is either run by an elitist or changed over time to give control to such a person(s) and you now, realizing this and objecting to it, wish to leave said association. Normally you merely sever ties, allow membership to lapse, or otherwise quietly make your departure.

Rarely though, it occurs that the elitist will not ‘permit’ your leaving. They continue to claim you under their influence when such is not the case or made claim to in illegal manner. Rather than fight with the elitist who is incapable of understanding you no longer care about them or find them important... you simply make public that you in fact are no longer associated with that person and/or group, despite their claims to the contrary.

Unquote....

[Multidigits]

http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050327/SPORTS09/503270401/1002/SPORTS

[gwhilikerz]

Willie I like what you posted about "elitism". Could you also post it on the crossbow forum? I think it should be there as well. Thank you.

[Willie]

Willie I like what you posted about "elitism". Could you also post it on the crossbow forum? I think it should be there as well. Thank you.


Sure can....................

[moreammoplz]

Schuyler olt, Thanks for your efforts in this matter. Your remarks at the 3 rd district meeting were right on.
JCSC Board Member

[Dalebow]

Swamper

You are entitled to your opinion but the survey is not as scientific as you might think. The members of the commish are picked not placed based on their ability, it's a popularity contest. You sound like a liberal who wants to twist things to support your stance. I also know that the turkey biologist ( can't remember his name) begged the committee not to open turkey season on the saturday in april for fear of nesting damage and he was not headed. So no the biologist are not listened to. You may take a poll in Louisville which is a liberal city and went for Kerry in 04 but the larger majority of Ky went for bush, you can twist a survey any way you want it.
You may change your mind when they name a new head of F & W isn't a hunter or fisherman.

Willie
You can repeat the dictionary all you want, you can call an elitist whatever you want but someone on this site call us that shoot our bows everyday "elite" So I am elite. the bunch of guys I hunt and shoot with mostly shoot tradtional gear, I think that makes them elite. Tell a Green Beret that being elite is a bad thing, if you dare. Anyway you can spew all you want bottom line is there will be a division of thoughts on theis subject and there will be no winner either way.

An elite bowhunter: Dale

[Multidigits]

You are entitled to your opinion but the survey is not as scientific as you might think. The members of the commish are picked not placed based on their ability, it's a popularity contest. You sound like a liberal who wants to twist things to support your stance. Selection would be a better word. Which one do you have evidence on that doesn't need to be on the panel???

I also know that the turkey biologist (can't remember his name) begged the committee not to open turkey season on the saturday in april for fear of nesting damage and he was not headed. So no the biologist are not listened to. Your wrong on Jim Lane. And of course the NWTF wasn't against it like they should have been, based on past polls taken by the Clubs. But it didn't happen. The decision was totally based on the survey taken in 2002, same as the crossbow issue.


You may take a poll in Louisville which is a liberal city and went for Kerry in 04 but the larger majority of Ky went for bush, you can twist a survey any way you want it. Where's the relevance???


You may change your mind when they name a new head of F & W isn't a hunter or fisherman. You can blame those that want to circumvent the std. process, not the pro-crossbow.

[/QUOTE]

[Willie]

Dalebow- "You are entitled to your opinion but the survey is not as scientific as you might think. The members of the commish are picked not placed based on their ability, it's a popularity contest. ...a new head of F & W isn't a hunter or fisherman."

Willie - How the commissioners are selected has absolutely nothing to do with if the survey is valid or not. Look again at who they were sent out to (Kentucky hunters) and how many the got back (3,000+) and then FINALLY look at the margin of error. It is a scientific survey. You don't like the results so you poo-poo it..

Scientuific.. You sure cant say that about the 70 that showed up for a meeting, can you?

Dalebow -"You can repeat the dictionary all you want, you can call an elitist whatever you want but someone on this site call us that shoot our bows everyday "elite" So I am elite."

Willie - You need to reread it. There is a difference in being "elite" and "elitism".

[Dalebow]

blah, blah, blah! Anyone can pick up a gun or crossbow and shoot it and if that is what your into then have at it, I will stick with a real bow that I have to actully pull back and release with my own strength. There are those who don't want to devote time to get good at something and want the quick fix, that is the able bodied people that shoot x-bows. I will take being elite everytime.


An elite bowhunter,
Dale

[Multidigits]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_6_8.gif Your an elitist not elite. Read the post again and se the difference. I hope you tell the commission your views on what you are and what you stand for.

[Dalebow]

I am elite, sorry you don't see it, but that's your problem. You just want to play in my treehouse and can't:-)

an elite bowhunter, Dale

[Willie]

Define "real bow"??

[Dalebow]

a real bow does not have to be defined, but the current definition in the hunting regs about sums it up, let me break it down for you, a bow is a devise that you pull back when you see game and hold back until you let go, I could care less about letoff, a bow is not cocked a crossbow is:-)

An elite bowhunter/devil deer, Dale

[Willie]

"........a real bow does not have to be defined,..."


Really?

You need to read...

http://www.kentuckyhunting.net/forums/showthread.php?p=137026#post137026

The vice president of Comptons called compounds - "machines" and not bows. He said they will be the "ruination of the 'bow' season".

There are a lot of trad shooter/hunters than think that the compound is not a bow either.

Up until recently the P & Y club didn't call the over 65% let off compounds a bow.

Now a question - What season is it that we use archery equipment in? Is it BOW season? Nope. It is called ARCHERY SEASON.

[Dalebow]

Looks like that's an organization to join:-)

Devil Deer

[Willie]

Looks like that's an organization to join:-)

Devil Deer

Yeah, you would fit right in with an exclusionary, head up their butts, better than thou, anti-everything but stick bow organization.

[Dalebow]

Nope I again state compounds are fine, but they oppose x-bows and that's up my alley:-)

[Willie]

Nope I again state compounds are fine, but they oppose x-bows and that's up my alley:-)

And Comptons dont like the compounds either.

They call them "machines that will ruin the "bow seasons".

What antique thinking - much like your own.

Yeah, they are tailor made for you.

[Dalebow]

Willie, willie willie

And you don't even know me:-(

an elite bowhunter, Dale

[Willie]

Willie, willie willie

And you don't even know me:-(

an elite bowhunter, Dale


No matter...

"..........by their own words shall they be known."

[Al]

No Dale, Wille has never seen you , but you are known by what you post. It is said dont judge a book by its cover . By your posts you have shown your pages and it aint pretty. When a man gets shook up whats on the inside comes out and that is how you will be remembered.