UBK crossbow poll

[bunniebuster]

http://www.unitedbowhuntersofkentucky.org/ looks like they are having a crossbow poll and didnt invite us ,,,but then again i realy wasnt expecting them to invite anyone who is willing to use a crossbow:rolleyes:

[kybowhunter1963]

No need to be rude......the poll is obviously OPEN to all!!

[bunniebuster]

No need to be rude......the poll is obviously OPEN to all!! wasnt being rude just inviting a few friends to vote, not everyone would have known if i hadnt posted the link , it was no disrespect to anyone, sorry if it offended you

[Xtreme]

http://www.unitedbowhuntersofkentucky.org/ looks like they are having a crossbow poll and didnt invite us ,,,but then again i realy wasnt expecting them to invite anyone who is willing to use a crossbow:rolleyes:

Looks like there has been some posts cleaned up again! By all means go to this link and vote. When things stay behind smoke screens and curtains there can only be ill tidings at hand.

Folks, the UBK has had a website for a long time as there has been Bowsite as well. none of these are "secret" sites. As a matter of fact there is a direct link on UBK's site back to kyhunting.com.

No secrets there.

[bunniebuster]

Looks like there has been some posts cleaned up again! By all means go to this link and vote. When things stay behind smoke screens and curtains there can only be ill tidings at hand.

Folks, the UBK has had a website for a long time as there has been Bowsite as well. none of these are "secret" sites. As a matter of fact there is a direct link on UBK's site back to kyhunting.com.

No secrets there. people take things to serious around here i was trying to make a joke if it offended anyone im sorry everyone needs to lighten up a lil bit, all that stress aint good for ones health, dont take everything posted so serious its just a coment not a threat or anything

[bunniebuster]

and as far as the post cleaned up if you was refering to my post that was edited i had to corect some spelling

[Xtreme]

and as far as the post cleaned up if you was refering to my post that was edited i had to corect some spelling

No, I was not referring to edits. There are posts getting deleted on this subject faster than some folks can post them.

This is serious stuff to some folks, heck I'm one of them just I've resolved myself to remain civil.[most of the time]:D

I don't bird hunt much so I guess I could sit back and enjoy a ring side seat and watch folks get mad as hell over bird hunting issues.

The sad part is that sooner or later the spectator will be the competitor in this arena. Just go to the deer hunting forumn and read the comments about expanded gun seasons. Also your title tells me you are a houndsman. How do you feel about the gun deer season when you are trying to run your best hard earned dog that is not only a tool so to speak but a family member?:eek:

Beware my friends, we tread very close to a chasm that will trap us all if we are not careful.

[bunniebuster]

xtreme i understand where you are coming from , as far as running my hounds they never leave the yard during any firearms season or early archery,im usely deer hunting myself during those times :D even when i aint i still have respect to the others who are and i know i wouldnt want anyone turning a pack of hounds loose around me while im deerhunting, i know this site offers alot of hunters a chance to get information they couldnt get elsewere and gives everyone something to do in the off season but boy i wish turkey season would hurry up and get here ,,WE ALL NEED A BREATH OF FRESH AIR and let our nerves settle down

[Xtreme]

Sooner or later the seasons will clash and clash big. I fear the time is near to be real honest. Just go to the deer hunting thread and read what folks are saying about expanded gun deer seasons.

Some folks don't like muzzle loaders, some hate bow hunters, some want a split gun deer season right in the middle of prime time deer rut. Some want split deer seasons right in the middle of prime time small game season.

Some folks just want a little peace and quiet to observe nature in her finest with a "bow" in their hands or should I say cradled as well.

If a person hunts with dogs that person has EVERY right to fear for that dogs safety during any firearms deer season. I have been a houndsman for way longer than I ever was a bow hunter. If you want to lose a good hunting dog just turn it loose during a "orange season".

Think I'm full of crap just go back and read some of the posts on here in regards to "shooting dogs during gun deer seasons" etc. Even multi gets wound up over this subject.

And spare me any rubbish such as "they do it down south with no problems"

They also consider boiled peanuts a delicacy down south as well:mad:

In regards to deer hunting "If heaven is anything like Dixie I'd just as soon stay here"......Sorry Hank....no offense meant:rolleyes:

[gwhilikerz]

Xtreme if you are talking about some of my posts you are right, I did and do edit quite often. I sometimes get too angry at what someone says and I say some things better left unsaid. Didn't know that was grounds for complaint also.

[Willie]

"Sooner or later the seasons will clash and clash big."

Probably so...

But compound/recurve bowhunting and crossbow hunting are compatible..

[Kansas]

As of right now, the UBK is losing their own survey. I think there is more support for crossbows then even the active pro crossbow guys think.
Crossbows have been in OH for about 30 years, we have a 4 month season and have a strong herd and kill big bucks. The sky didn't fall in OH, it won't fall in KY either.

[Willie]

Kansas - "The sky didn't fall in OH, it won't fall in KY either."

Nor Georgia , nor Alabama.......

Much ado about nothing..

[Willie]

As of right now, the UBK is losing their own survey. I think there is more support for crossbows then even the active pro crossbow guys think.


YEP...it sure looks that way..

[Walt K]

Last night, 3/17/05, our webmaster reported a few dishonest individuals found a way to reset and vote multiple times from one computer, actually 500 votes came in from one IP. He would not tell us who it was as it was not a criminal action, just unethical. The webmaster has now safeguarded to only allow one vote per person. The survey has been reset to start again. Sorry for any inconvenience, please re-vote. Our site is open to all.

[Willie]

Last night, 3/17/05, our webmaster reported a few dishonest individuals found a way to reset and vote multiple times from one computer, actually 500 votes came in from one IP. He would not tell us who it was as it was not a criminal action, just unethical. The webmaster has now safeguarded to only allow one vote per person. The survey has been reset to start again. Sorry for any inconvenience, please re-vote. Our site is open to all.


thanks Walt..

that is the way it should be..

[buckfever]

Walt - I'm not sure what you're trying to measure?? Among other things, people for or against the decision could easily walk around and get totally disinterested people to vote. I could vote from both my work and home terminals. Because this can be abused so easily, I don't think that you can get a fair or accurate response. B

[buckfever]

Also, there should've been two polls: crossbows into fall turkey archery season and crossbows into deer archery season.

[buckfever]

Last night, 3/17/05, our webmaster reported a few dishonest individuals found a way to reset and vote multiple times from one computer, actually 500 votes came in from one IP. He would not tell us who it was as it was not a criminal action, just unethical. The webmaster has now safeguarded to only allow one vote per person. The survey has been reset to start again. Sorry for any inconvenience, please re-vote. Our site is open to all.

In line with what I stated above, I just don't think you'll get an honest result from this poll. Somebody who took the time to enter 500 votes from his own computer will undoubtedly go out of his way to ask disinterested parties to vote. Heck, I could send out 80 e-mails to my fellow co-workers and ask them to vote in accordance with my own view. And despite the fact that most of these 80 people wouldn't even know the difference b/t a recurve, a compound and a xbow, most would vote the way that I wanted them to. Just my 2 cents (sense?).

[buckfever]

As of right now, the UBK is losing their own survey. I think there is more support for crossbows then even the active pro crossbow guys think.
Crossbows have been in OH for about 30 years, we have a 4 month season and have a strong herd and kill big bucks. The sky didn't fall in OH, it won't fall in KY either.

Kansas - Just out of curiosity, did you vote? I'm sure Willie did, and he's from NJ. I'm not sure why UBK is polling people from out of state. The only question that matters is what Kentucky hunters think about this.

[gwhilikerz]

Kansas - Just out of curiosity, did you vote? I'm sure Willie did, and he's from NJ. I'm not sure why UBK is polling people from out of state. The only question that matters is what Kentucky hunters think about this.
Yes sir, and next it will be "the only question that matters is what UBK members think". Then It will be "only those UBK members who are against xbow inclusion". Then comes "only what I think".

[gwhilikerz]

I just went to the UBK site and voted. It seems that 70 % of those who have voted so far are saying yes to the decision to allow xbows. And this is after the "foul-up" and multiple votes. I'm sure t will change in the future when those opposed "get out the vote".

[Willie]

Kansas - Just out of curiosity, did you vote? I'm sure Willie did, and he's from NJ. I'm not sure why UBK is polling people from out of state. The only question that matters is what Kentucky hunters think about this.

Wrong.. Willie is lives in Indiana and Willie hunts a LOT in Kentucky.. with a crossbow...

Being a crossbower I can NOT see that changing from a compound to a crossbow will make one bit of difference. Especially to the deer that gets an arrow ran through him. ;)

[buckfever]

Gwillie - I'm not sure what problems you have with anything I've posted? To the extent UBK intends on using this poll for anything other than fun and giggles, the complete lack of any meaningful controls makes ANY result (for or against) absolutely unreliable. As you mentioned, the anti-xbowers could easily "get the vote" out if they wanted to. I'd speculate that the end result will show that more people are against than for xbows, but this result is absolute junk. We don't know who voted and whether the votes were even legit. I just think that this particular poll adds NOTHING to the xbow debate.

I'm also not sure why you take issue with my belief that nonresident opinions should be excluded. If you believe this poll is meaningful (in terms of being considered relevant by any Ky decision makers), why should nonresidents' opinions be considered? Why should nonhunters' opinions matter? If UBK wants to poll their own members, great. What's your problem with that? The importance of that vote would be entitled to its due weight. However, the poll, as it now exists, can hardly be considered important for anything relevant to this discussion.

[buckfever]

Wrong.. Willie is lives in Indiana and Willie hunts a LOT in Kentucky.. with a crossbow...

Being a crossbower I can NOT see that changing from a compound to a crossbow will make one bit of difference. Especially to the deer that gets an arrow ran through him. ;)

I stand corrected. I saw a post you previously made in which you said you spent the last 15 years bowhunting NJ and assumed that NJ was your home state.

[Walt K]

Like any other poll, they are not exact nor something to base exactly what the masses think. Yes, non-residents can vote on this, but they could vote on Kentucky Hunting also,,if they were registered. It's really just a curiosity thing. UBK has never used any of its site survey question results for anything official. Just like Kentucky Hunting's results, and any other that has no control of who responds, it's just a 'feel out' of those on line. If someone is so ambitious to get whoever to vote..they're wasting their time. UBK will continue to do its work directly with folks, not on nameless internet chat. As I said, our survey questions are strictly 'feel out' questions and it gives those on the site some interaction with the web page.
I've done a lot of public affairs work for the Army and attended some really good PA schools, and its always stressed that the internet is actually a very poor communication tool, other than information exchange. Certainly not debate, which is why we see so many get flamed so quickly. Your analogy of text before you is not necessarily a true accuracy of what that person is trying to communicate to you. Serious communication requires in person meetings, where body lanquage, facial expressions, voice tones, etc. can be witnessed, along with the ability to communicate and counter instantly in debate. And besides, I guess UBK did have that squirrel question up there long enough.

[gwhilikerz]

Gwillie - I'm not sure what problems you have with anything I've posted? To the extent UBK intends on using this poll for anything other than fun and giggles, the complete lack of any meaningful controls makes ANY result (for or against) absolutely unreliable. As you mentioned, the anti-xbowers could easily "get the vote" out if they wanted to. I'd speculate that the end result will show that more people are against than for xbows, but this result is absolute junk. We don't know who voted and whether the votes were even legit. I just think that this particular poll adds NOTHING to the xbow debate.

I'm also not sure why you take issue with my belief that nonresident opinions should be excluded. If you believe this poll is meaningful (in terms of being considered relevant by any Ky decision makers), why should nonresidents' opinions be considered? Why should nonhunters' opinions matter? If UBK wants to poll their own members, great. What's your problem with that? The importance of that vote would be entitled to its due weight. However, the poll, as it now exists, can hardly be considered important for anything relevant to this discussion.
I don't have any problems with you but I do have problems with some of what you post. You know as well as i that if and when the "vote/poll" at UBK shows more are against the xbow you will shout it from the rooftops. As it is it doesn't indicate that. So once again it is illegitimate-meaningless-just for fun, etc. I know the UBK poll is meaningless, just as our polls here have no real bearing. But if you think the people at UBK put it up just for laughs, well you know better.
Now as to NRs having no dog in this fight. They buy a NR license and hunt here, some with a xbow.

[Willie]

I stand corrected. I saw a post you previously made in which you said you spent the last 15 years bowhunting NJ and assumed that NJ was your home state.


I never posted that either.

I have never hunted NJ at all..

[Xtreme]

I just went to the UBK site and voted. It seems that 70 % of those who have voted so far are saying yes to the decision to allow xbows. And this is after the "foul-up" and multiple votes. I'm sure t will change in the future when those opposed "get out the vote".

The last poll online here had xbows losing something like 120 to 91? These internet polls are like our weather:( This poll was also out for nearly a month:p

I think we may all have been "pole axed":D

[Willie]

The last poll online here had xbows losing something like 120 to 91? These internet polls are like our weather:( This poll was also out for nearly a month:p

I think we may all have been "pole axed":D


Maybe some people take the answer that was given by the commission as it.

Maybe they don't want to make an end run around the commission.

....and they vote accordingly..

[rouge]

if the poll doesnt mean anything then why do it? just to stir up more shit?

[kybowhunter1963]

If anyone feels that they may be harmed, insulted, dismayed, perplexed, discouraged/encouraged, or just down right bothered by the pole......DON'T GO THERE.....PLEASE.....STOP.....DON'T TOUCH THAT KEYBOARD.....FOR THE SAKE OF ALL HUMANITY....STOP

[plowboy]

Way I see it some folks just want everything for themselves and are unwilling to share. Personally I've never used a xbow but don't really see anything wrong with it. I hunt turkey, deer and squirrel and fish some, but don't understand these guys that crawl around in ice water and mud to shoot a duck. Point is I don't need to understand them, that is their right and privilege.

[rouge]

plowboy, your point has been expressed many times by others here. the other side wont listen to reason. there are other issues we should be more concerned with, that affect all sportsmen. this issue has and will only divide us and in the end destroy us!

[buckfever]

I never posted that either.

I have never hunted NJ at all..

Something's gone awry then. Either someone is entering posts under your name, or you cut and pasted an article from somewhere else. Here's a direct quote from the thread you started entitled "Is bow-hunting on a downward spiral in New Jersey?"

"According to license sales over the past 20 plus years, yes it is. Garden State hunters taking to the woods with bow and arrow in hand, have been steadily declining since the mid nineties. In 1993 50,804 archers purchased hunting licenses, while in 2003, that number plummeted to only 35,923*. *(youth license sales were not given, so I added 1000 to this number, as an average from years past)

This shows a 29.2% decrease from 1993 to 2003. . . .

Does this spell disaster for bowhunting in New Jersey? I certainly hope not, I have been carrying a bow through the New Jersey woods for fifteen years, and I hope to carry it with me for about fifty more. To ensure the future of this wonderful disipline, we have to let our voices be heard, and recruit youth into our ranks. Standing up for what we believe in and know is necessary. Regain strength in our numbers by taking young people under our wing, and showing them, teaching them, nurturing them. Allowing them to become a part of the family and rich traditions that only bowhunters know."

[Bowcrazy]

I don't put a lot of faith in polls unless I know a whole lot about the way they are conducted. Even the national presidential exit polls in Ohio were questionable in the last election, and appeared to be manipulated.

I've talked to a lot of hunters over the last several weeks about the crossbow deal in Kentucky. If you ask them if they are for or against using crossbows, it usually comes out slightly more against than for, I'd say about 55/45. When you really start to question the 45 who are for it, you only find 4%-5% that really want to see it in order to take advantage of it, the other 40% fall into the don't care group. On the other had, the 55% against are really against. I'm sure there is someone out there who is getting a different reading :) In my area it seems to be 5% pushing their will on 55%.......and not just adding a few days but effectively ending any archery only season for the 55%. If this issue is not resolved, and resolved on a national basis since it is sales/money driven and therefore will occur eventually in every state, it is going to cause major problems for the hunting world. You have a major portion of hunters having this shoved on us and it is not going to go away as an issue, only grow larger, if some resolution is not found.

[gwhilikerz]

I don't put a lot of faith in polls unless I know a whole lot about the way they are conducted. Even the national presidential exit polls in Ohio were questionable in the last election, and appeared to be manipulated.

I've talked to a lot of hunters over the last several weeks about the crossbow deal in Kentucky. If you ask them if they are for or against using crossbows, it usually comes out slightly more against than for, I'd say about 55/45. When you really start to question the 45 who are for it, you only find 4%-5% that really want to see it in order to take advantage of it, the other 40% fall into the don't care group. On the other had, the 55% against are really against. I'm sure there is someone out there who is getting a different reading :) In my area it seems to be 5% pushing their will on 55%.......and not just adding a few days but effectively ending any archery only season for the 55%. If this issue is not resolved, and resolved on a national basis since it is sales/money driven and therefore will occur eventually in every state, it is going to cause major problems for the hunting world. You have a major portion of hunters having this shoved on us and it is not going to go away as an issue, only grow larger, if some resolution is not found.
Bowcrazy, that is just, well, crazy. You say you don't put much stock in polls. Then you go on to say your personal poll shows 55/45 split against xbows. But that isn't good enough so you arbitrarily take 45% and change it to 5%, thereby "proving" everybody is against xbows. Man it don't work like that. I know! We can subtract from the 55% and make it 5%. The 50% are those vertical boys who say they won't share "their" woods with xbows and they are quitting the sport. Then the 5% xbow and 5% anti-xbow can hunt in peace with lots of room to roam.

[Willie]

Something's gone awry then. Either someone is entering posts under your name, or you cut and pasted an article from somewhere else. Here's a direct quote from the thread you started entitled "Is bow-hunting on a downward spiral in New Jersey?"



OK.. I went back and read the post.

This was a magazine article . Maybe I should have referenced the site?

Sorry for the confusion...

All hunting is on a decline in just about every state.

In Indiana we have had 2 1/2% decline in deer hunter numbers in two years. That doesn't sound likr much but when you multiply it out over few years it adds up very quickly.

We need to recruit hunters and the crossbow is a good recruitment tool.

That was my point...

[Bowcrazy]

Bowcrazy, that is just, well, crazy. You say you don't put much stock in polls. Then you go on to say your personal poll shows 55/45 split against xbows. But that isn't good enough so you arbitrarily take 45% and change it to 5%, thereby "proving" everybody is against xbows. Man it don't work like that. I know! We can subtract from the 55% and make it 5%. The 50% are those vertical boys who say they won't share "their" woods with xbows and they are quitting the sport. Then the 5% xbow and 5% anti-xbow can hunt in peace with lots of room to roam.

Okay, G now we have my opinion and your opinion..... which are both about as scientific as the so called poll that was used to make the crossbow decision :)

[Duster]

I think I would put a lot more faith in a poll ran by the state than one run by a anti-crossbow organization or member of same.

[Dalebow]

good thing I or the UBK don't give a crap about what you think:-) LOL

[Dalebow]

rogue


Nope we won't listen:-)

[Duster]

good thing I or the UBK don't give a crap about what you think:-) LOL

I'm sure the feeling is mutual :-)

[gwhilikerz]

good thing I or the UBK don't give a crap about what you think:-) LOL
Maybe you don't give a crap, but UBK better give a crap or they are going to be a lot less of a force in KY hunting. It is one thing to be against an issue concerning hunting. But it is shooting yourself in the foot to come off looking like a bunch of fanatics. UBK is better than that. I think?

[Dalebow]

Let me again say that UBK was formed in th 70's the first time crossbows were mentioned for hunting. Then and forever we will combat them, that is why we are. Crossbows are not bows they are guns. We will always be a force in Ky. I can say this UBK was the only organization with a booth at the Archery in the Schools competition on Wed this past week, voluntering our time. There were a lot of those that attended with their children's school that belong to bow clubs all over the state and 99% of them have and are joing UBK to show that even if crossbows are leagalized the majority of bowhunters are against them. Of course these are the majority that volunter their time for worthwhile things like the archery in the schools program. Many of us lost a day of work to help kids and promote archery, where were all of you guys???

[Dalebow]

Oh yeah and explain to me how the crossbow issue isn't a hunting issue, I thought this whole thing is about hunting with a crossbow, was I asleep??

[Willie]

Oh yeah and explain to me how the crossbow issue isn't a hunting issue, I thought this whole thing is about hunting with a crossbow, was I asleep??


More like comotose... ;)

[Dalebow]

Willie you can give a smart ass answer but answer the question. Our is the use of crossbows during the entire archery season not about hunting. Isn't it used for taking game??

[Willie]

It looks like a battle of the "cookie eaters.."

The only number I believe on there is the UNDECIDEDS... :)


Yes, dalebow it is about hunting. More so it is about more opportunities for hunters, recruitment of hunters and giving the F & W boys another tool to manage deer.

Indiana is starting to face a problem of an ever increasing deer herd. We just basically tied an all time harvest record that was set back in 1996 when it was a "kill them all" mode.Something will have to give up here very shortly too.

BTW - If YOU give smart ass remarks and attack other other people you will usually get it back in kind.

Sorry, I just could not resist the "comotose" remark. It was too easy to pounce on your "sleep" remark.... ;)

[Dalebow]

Well let's allow guns during the archery season and no state will have too many deer and the season will shorten and then there won't be a conflict with " do I hunt or go to thanksgiving dinner" "do I want to miss the game?"

[Willie]

Well let's allow guns during the archery season and no state will have too many deer and the season will shorten and then there won't be a conflict with " do I hunt or go to thanksgiving dinner" "do I want to miss the game?"

I think that is what this is all about. Heading off the guns. Crossbows INSTEAD OF GUNS IN EARLY ARCHERY.

Which would you really prefer?

[XCOP]

Let me again say that UBK was formed in th 70's the first time crossbows were mentioned for hunting. Then and forever we will combat them, that is why we are. Crossbows are not bows they are guns. We will always be a force in Ky. ???

This statement just about says it all. This IS the mission statement of the UBK. I'm sure that will upset some of you, and so will this. I read and believe what the Bible says: and here is what it says in Proverbs 18: 1-2 "An ufriendly man pursues selfish ends; he defies all sound judgement. A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinion."
Gentlemen, I have had enough of this bickering. I had hoped to see something positive for hunting on this forum. But the antis are watching, and if they don't pick Kentucky as their next campaign, they are missing a great opportunity. They do believe in "divide and conquer" and you have already provided them with the division. I will be signing off of this forum and watching the news for a story saying "Deer season closed in Kentucky, following massive PETA protest":(
PS. If there are subsequent hearings on the crossbow issue, I would use the above quote in my argument, as it shows "scheme and design" from the very inception of the UBK!!:eek:

[Multidigits]

This statement just about says it all. This IS the mission statement of the UBK. I'm sure that will upset some of you, and so will this. I read and believe what the Bible says: and here is what it says in Proverbs 18: 1-2 "An ufriendly man pursues selfish ends; he defies all sound judgement. A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing his own opinion."
Gentlemen, I have had enough of this bickering. I had hoped to see something positive for hunting on this forum. But the antis are watching, and if they don't pick Kentucky as their next campaign, they are missing a great opportunity. They do believe in "divide and conquer" and you have already provided them with the division. I will be signing off of this forum and watching the news for a story saying "Deer season closed in Kentucky, following massive PETA protest":(
PS. If there are subsequent hearings on the crossbow issue, I would use the above quote in my argument, as it shows "scheme and design" from the very inception of the UBK!!:eek:

Yes and if what you say happens those who want to go around the commission and the system we have used for years will be more than partly responsible.

[InfantryGrunt]

There is one fact that ol' Ben Franklin had right. We must all hang together or we will most assuredly hang separately. Hunting in all forms is under constant attack by various groups that would like to see all hunting eliminated. We as hunters need to figure out how to work together, not wasting time and energy attacking each other.

As hunters, we all need to become spokesmen for our sport and portray it in a positive light. And our sport is hunting.

[DW]

xtreme i understand where you are coming from , as far as running my hounds they never leave the yard during any firearms season or early archery,im usely deer hunting myself during those times :D even when i aint i still have respect to the others who are and i know i wouldnt want anyone turning a pack of hounds loose around me while im deerhunting, i know this site offers alot of hunters a chance to get information they couldnt get elsewere and gives everyone something to do in the off season but boy i wish turkey season would hurry up and get here ,,WE ALL NEED A BREATH OF FRESH AIR and let our nerves settle down
You mean early crossbow. Bunniebuster, you have always crossbow hunted with that exemption you have. Wish I was in your line of work.

[Kansas]

Kansas - Just out of curiosity, did you vote? I'm sure Willie did, and he's from NJ. I'm not sure why UBK is polling people from out of state. The only question that matters is what Kentucky hunters think about this.

Buckfever, I did vote. I was reading the thread and went to the poll. Nowhere did it say KY residents only. If it did, I would not have voted. I have the opportunity to hunt KY and I agree with the boards decision. So I voted yes. I like the idea that I have the option to hunt with a crossbow if I choose. If I hunt KY I buy a tag, stay the night, eat and pay taxes all the while I am there. That makes money for your state and your wildlife. That money might not show up if I can't use a crossbow.

[buckfever]

Buckfever, I did vote. I was reading the thread and went to the poll. Nowhere did it say KY residents only. If it did, I would not have voted. I have the opportunity to hunt KY and I agree with the boards decision. So I voted yes. I like the idea that I have the option to hunt with a crossbow if I choose. If I hunt KY I buy a tag, stay the night, eat and pay taxes all the while I am there. That makes money for your state and your wildlife. That money might not show up if I can't use a crossbow.

Just wondering about the vote. I was just using this to show why this particular poll is irretrievably flawed. You're certainly entitled to hunt with a crossbow if you'd like, but non-residents cannot vote and no political voice in Kentucky. The fact that non-residents may or may not bring in money is irrelevant. It was not part of the Dept's justifications for passing this particular regulation. I also know that many Kentuckians are worried that the expansive inclusion of xbows will lead to many more non-resident hunters, like yourself. This is because of concerns that non-residents, who don't own the land and may only hunt here one year, aren't nearly as interested in managing the herd for the long term, and are primarily interested in shooting bucks.

[Kansas]

Just wondering about the vote. I was just using this to show why this particular poll is irretrievably flawed. You're certainly entitled to hunt with a crossbow if you'd like, but non-residents cannot vote and no political voice in Kentucky. The fact that non-residents may or may not bring in money is irrelevant. It was not part of the Dept's justifications for passing this particular regulation. I also know that many Kentuckians are worried that the expansive inclusion of xbows will lead to many more non-resident hunters, like yourself. This is because of concerns that non-residents, who don't own the land and may only hunt here one year, aren't nearly as interested in managing the herd for the long term, and are primarily interested in shooting bucks.

I doubt that anyone who saw the poll thought that it was accurate or had any scientific meaning to it. I also did not imply that I had a vote or a voice in KY. However, don't kid yourself if you think money was not an issue to somebody in the dept. Dollars make the world go round. The Dept wants to maintain hunters, keep the deer herd in check and keep funding up as much as possible. That is their job.

[Multidigits]

Just wondering about the vote. I was just using this to show why this particular poll is irretrievably flawed. You're certainly entitled to hunt with a crossbow if you'd like, but non-residents cannot vote and no political voice in Kentucky. The fact that non-residents may or may not bring in money is irrelevant. It was not part of the Dept's justifications for passing this particular regulation. I also know that many Kentuckians are worried that the expansive inclusion of xbows will lead to many more non-resident hunters, like yourself. This is because of concerns that non-residents, who don't own the land and may only hunt here one year, aren't nearly as interested in managing the herd for the long term, and are primarily interested in shooting bucks.

"The fact that non-residents may or may not bring in money is irrelevant. It was not part of the Dept's justifications for passing this particular regulation"

Well that's completely false. NRs hunters play a big part in are game laws and the decisions made by the Commission. If they buy a license and a tag. their opinion is valued and accepted just as a residents would be. In fact, the gentlemen that spoke on crossbows at the Commission meeting, as you pointed out on the radio, was a NR. The Commission thanked him for his input as they did for all the others.

NR hunters have the same concerns or even more so then do Ky. hunters. For varification, just see what the average buck killed in Ky. is for a resident hunter vs. a NR hunter. All the NR hunters in my clubs are dedicated mature buck hunters, most Ky. hunters are not. They spend more money and want more for their buck.

LAst, the Commission will welcome even more NR hunters when this is finalized. They don't turn anyone away. Most of us don't have a problem with visitors. It would be shelfish to do so. In fact, we should all thank them for coming, and for helping keep our license prices in check.

[buckfever]

"The fact that non-residents may or may not bring in money is irrelevant. It was not part of the Dept's justifications for passing this particular regulation"

Well that's completely false. NRs hunters play a big part in are game laws and the decisions made by the Commission. If they buy a license and a tag. their opinion is valued and accepted just as a residents would be. In fact, the gentlemen that spoke on crossbows at the Commission meeting, as you pointed out on the radio, was a NR. The Commission thanked him for his input as they did for all the others.

NR hunters have the same concerns or even more so then do Ky. hunters. For varification, just see what the average buck killed in Ky. is for a resident hunter vs. a NR hunter. All the NR hunters in my clubs are dedicated mature buck hunters, most Ky. hunters are not. They spend more money and want more for their buck.

LAst, the Commission will welcome even more NR hunters when this is finalized. They don't turn anyone away. Most of us don't have a problem with visitors. It would be shelfish to do so. In fact, we should all thank them for coming, and for helping keep our license prices in check.


Bullsheet. Nobody from the Dept or on the Commission ever sniffed at the possibility that MONEY had anything to do with this decision. They also said it wasn't about the resource. They said that this was solely a SOCIAL ISSUE.

And what's with this quote: "NR hunters have the same concerns or even more so then do Ky. hunters."
You insinuate that Nonresidents are better (or at least equal) stewards of the land than Kentuckians. Again, Bullsheet. Yes, I'm sure there are some NRs that live near Kentucky, hunt regularly over here, and have an interest in the land they lease. And I'm sure it's true that NR's do on average shoot bigger bucks than KY residents, but, on the flip side, I'd bet that buck/doe harvest by NR is 80% bucks to 20% does. Say what you want, but THAT is not good for the Ky deer herd.

The simple fact is that many simply non-resident hunters buy their tags and make the long trip Ky to hunt for a short period of time to buck hunt. (EX: Remember Skin-Dog and others who went to KS to hunt. You telling me they went there to shoot does?) You can say what you want about Kentuckians welcoming NR's with open arms, but many KY sportsmen want KDFWR to jack-up NR fees to limit the number of NR hunters, not simply to put $ in the public coffers.

[Multidigits]

Bullsheet. Nobody from the Dept or on the Commission ever sniffed at the possibility that MONEY had anything to do with this decision. They also said it wasn't about the resource. They said that this was solely a SOCIAL ISSUE.

And what's with this quote: "NR hunters have the same concerns or even more so then do Ky. hunters."
You insinuate that Nonresidents are better (or at least equal) stewards of the land than Kentuckians. Again, Bullsheet. Yes, I'm sure there are some NRs that live near Kentucky, hunt regularly over here, and have an interest in the land they lease. And I'm sure it's true that NR's do on average shoot bigger bucks than KY residents, but, on the flip side, I'd bet that buck/doe harvest by NR is 80% bucks to 20% does. Say what you want, but THAT is not good for the Ky deer herd.

The simple fact is that many simply non-resident hunters buy their tags and make the long trip Ky to hunt for a short period of time to buck hunt. (EX: Remember Skin-Dog and others who went to KS to hunt. You telling me they went there to shoot does?) You can say what you want about Kentuckians welcoming NR's with open arms, but many KY sportsmen want KDFWR to jack-up NR fees to limit the number of NR hunters, not simply to put $ in the public coffers.

Wrong again. The piece of paper that Bennett passed around was a trend chart of Jr. Hunter License sales. The reason was to imply that the change will increase license sales, from the ground up. That equates to MONEY.

Hensley comment last week that the crossbow will likely keep gun season as they are instead of more days or earlier days in what is now known as bow season. Do you plan to say that the resource won't be effect either way at the appeal???? Hope you do, because that should counter the NWTF contention that turkeys will be negatively effected.

As for NR hunters. All of them hunting on my properties practice intence QDM and shoot only very mature bucks and enough does to manage the property. Not so with the average hunter in Ky. who will shoot less than 1 doe per year, and a 1 1/2 year old buck or even a button. Statistic don't lie. Look and see what precentage of hunters shhott the first deer down the trail.

As for jacking up fees for NR hunters, your wrong again. Most don't want higher fees for NR's coming in, but more equal treatment when they go out. It's easy to prove as the topic has been discussed here very often in the past. You said before that you agree with everything the KYDFWR does to manage the herd. They hired a MArketing Director to increase the NR participation in Ky. Now your saying you disagree with the policy. Make up your mind for a change.

[buckfever]

I doubt that anyone who saw the poll thought that it was accurate or had any scientific meaning to it. I also did not imply that I had a vote or a voice in KY. .

I'd probably agree with you, except for the fact someone spent a bizarre amount of time trying to skew the results (in favor of the Dept's decision, by the way). Somebody obviously had their own agenda with respect to this poll.

However, don't kid yourself if you think money was not an issue to somebody in the dept. Dollars make the world go round. The Dept wants to maintain hunters, keep the deer herd in check and keep funding up as much as possible. That is their job.

I doubt you'll find anyone who'll agree that the one of the Dept's "jobs" is to maintain Non-resident hunters numbers.
Sure, the Dept wants to keep the deer herd in check, but this decision was not based on the resource. No mention was made of new NR hunters, and there was no evidence that a new xbow law would generate any add'l revenue for the state.

As for the money, see my response to Multi above.

[buckfever]

Wrong again. The piece of paper that Bennett passed around was a trend chart of Jr. Hunter License sales. The reason was to imply that the change will increase license sales, from the ground up. That equates to MONEY.

Hensley comment last week that the crossbow will likely keep gun season as they are instead of more days or earlier days in what is now known as bow season. Do you plan to say that the resource won't be effect either way at the appeal???? Hope you do, because that should counter the NWTF contention that turkeys will be negatively effected.

As for NR hunters. All of them hunting on my properties practice intence QDM and shoot only very mature bucks and enough does to manage the property. Not so with the average hunter in Ky. who will shoot less than 1 doe per year, and a 1 1/2 year old buck or even a button. Statistic don't lie. Look and see what precentage of hunters shhott the first deer down the trail.

As for jacking up fees for NR hunters, your wrong again. Most don't want higher fees for NR's coming in, but more equal treatment when they go out. It's easy to prove as the topic has been discussed here very often in the past. You said before that you agree with everything the KYDFWR does to manage the herd. They hired a MArketing Director to increase the NR participation in Ky. Now your saying you disagree with the policy. Make up your mind for a change.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore. I will say that you are consistent. You consistently post half-truths to suit your agenda. And no, I'm not going to come back and explain which half-truths I'm talking about. You're a big boy, you can figure it out???

[Multidigits]

I doubt you'll find anyone who'll agree that the one of the Dept's "jobs" is to maintain Non-resident hunters numbers.

Sure, the Dept wants to keep the deer herd in check, but this decision was not based on the resource. No mention was made of new NR hunters, and there was no evidence that a new xbow law would generate any add'l revenue for the state.

As for the money, see my response to Multi above.

Funny....I doubt the NEW Marketing Director would agre that his job is not to increase hunter numbers, both resident and non-resident. And recently we see the same "advertising" being done on the turkey flock as has been done on the deer herd for the last few years. So BF is wrong again.

We see the crossbow opponents say this chang will destroy archery as they know it. That it will ruin the turkey flock as we know it. That it will make WMAs unhuntable because of too many NR hunters. That the deer herd, in particular bucks will be damaged because of the added pressure. Yet Buck wants you to belive that this increase in pressure won't mean an increase in numbers? Strange how all those terrible things are going to happen if something doesn't inflate? For anyone wanting the truth, you can look at other states and what happened there with crossbow sales and increased license purchases to get an idea of how popular this new season will be. Ky. will follow those trends--it's a given

[Multidigits]

I'm not going to argue with you anymore. I will say that you are consistent. You consistently post half-truths to suit your agenda. And no, I'm not going to come back and explain which half-truths I'm talking about. You're a big boy, you can figure it out???


Great. I post the truth and you can't dispute it. That's fine too.

[Willie]

buckfever - "I'd probably agree with you, except for the fact someone spent a bizarre amount of time trying to skew the results (in favor of the Dept's decision, by the way). Somebody obviously had their own agenda with respect to this poll."

Willie - And none of that was done at all on the NO side?

I've seen these types of polls all up and down the line. It ends up a battle between the die hards as to who can dump their cookies the fastest and re-vote again and again. If one side takes an extreme advantage then it is because that side's person(s) had more time on their hands or is more computer literate than the other side. It’s called "fighting fire with fire."

The poll is MEANINGLESS regardless of which way the "vote" ends up.

buckfever - "I doubt you'll find anyone who'll agree that the one of the Dept's "jobs" is to maintain Non-resident hunters numbers. Sure, the Dept wants to keep the deer herd in check, but this decision was not based on the resource. No mention was made of new NR hunters, and there was no evidence that a new xbow law would generate any add'l revenue for the state.As for the money, see my response to Multi above."

Willie - Every state that I am aware of the crossbow garnered more tags sales and introduced more hunters to archery hunting. You are living in a fantasy world if you think the F & W does not look at every change as to how it affects it’s bottom line and that is to make money to further the wildlife management.Times are tough and getting tougher for them to make ends meet.

Some of those folks who took up the crossbow were brand new to the sport of hunting. Some were old-timer bowhunters than came out of retirement to take up the sport again. Some were women and kids that could join dad in archery season with a hunting tool that could quickly and humanely kill deer. Before that if they could archery hunt at all it was with the most they could handle and that was usually a 30 to 35 pound compound.

I will go on record as saying that people should not hunt with that lightweight equipment.

[Kansas]

Buckfever I'd probably agree with you, except for the fact someone spent a bizarre amount of time trying to skew the results (in favor of the Dept's decision, by the way). Somebody obviously had their own agenda with respect to this poll.

Kansas: I agree with this statement, but by posting the poll, don't you think the UBK was looking to skew results? You don't put a controversial poll on your site and not expect it to be skewed one way or another. This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

[Kansas]

Buckfever said
I doubt you'll find anyone who'll agree that the one of the Dept's "jobs" is to maintain Non-resident hunters numbers.
Sure, the Dept wants to keep the deer herd in check, but this decision was not based on the resource. No mention was made of new NR hunters, and there was no evidence that a new xbow law would generate any add'l revenue for the state.

Kansas:
If there is no evidence that the new crossbow law would generate any additional revenue, then that must mean that there would be no additional hunters bying archery tags. If this is true, then there is no threat to the true "Bowhunters". .... Hmmm ... Earlier in the thread you made mention that the expansive inclusion of crossbows might bring in many NR hunters that would want to shoot all the bucks. Which is it?

[gwhilikerz]

Buckfever said
I doubt you'll find anyone who'll agree that the one of the Dept's "jobs" is to maintain Non-resident hunters numbers.
Sure, the Dept wants to keep the deer herd in check, but this decision was not based on the resource. No mention was made of new NR hunters, and there was no evidence that a new xbow law would generate any add'l revenue for the state.

Kansas:
If there is no evidence that the new crossbow law would generate any additional revenue, then that must mean that there would be no additional hunters bying archery tags. If this is true, then there is no threat to the true "Bowhunters". .... Hmmm ... Earlier in the thread you made mention that the expansive inclusion of crossbows might bring in many NR hunters that would want to shoot all the bucks. Which is it?
Kansas don't try to figure the statements made by the guys against x-bows. They are running in circles right now. But things will get back to normal when they see that their fears were baseless.

[buckfever]

If there is no evidence that the new crossbow law would generate any additional revenue, then that must mean that there would be no additional hunters bying archery tags. If this is true, then there is no threat to the true "Bowhunters". .... Hmmm ... Earlier in the thread you made mention that the expansive inclusion of crossbows might bring in many NR hunters that would want to shoot all the bucks. Which is it?

Kansas - I know you don't live here, but come and hunt Kentucky sometime. You might learn that you don't buy an "archery tag" in Kentucky. You buy deer permits that you can use with any weapon. The Dept rep Jon Day, not me, was the one that said that there was no evidence that the inclusion of xbows would lead to new hunters (i.e. nonhunters to hunters). What do I personally think? Yes, we will receive more NR hunters primarily from Ohio. Will it add new hunters (i.e. nonhunters who become hunters b/c a crossbow is available) to the fields? No. Will gun hunters convert over to crossbows? Yes. How many? I don't know, but Gassett said it might increase early season participation by up to 24%. If true, that's about 20,000+ converted gunhunters who'll have their extra "opportunity". Do existing hunters object to this? I'd guess that approximately 2/3 of Ky deer and turkey hunters are against this proposal. I'd bet that private landowners and farmers would object to this b/c people will look for new hunting areas b/c of public land overcrowding and b/c we already have enough trespassing from existing weapons groups).

You can talk all you want to about how $ was the driving force behind this, but I was there, and the Dept solely offered this as a "social issue". Not a single word was uttered about revenue being the primary reason for the change.

[gwhilikerz]

buckfever said Do existing hunters object to this? I'd guess that approximately 2/3 of Ky deer and turkey hunters are against this proposal.

gwhilikerz says: So now we can forget polls and actual data when it comes to the hunters in Ky and go solely on what you "guess" . Well I can guess also. I would guess that 2/3 of the hunters in ky have no real feelings about this. It isn't that they may not know about the issue. It's that they are not thinking of using a xbow or otherwise changing their hunting habits, and they don't see what the big deal is. Now that I have accounted for 2/3:) that leaves 1/3 of the hunters in ky. Let's make it even simpler. Let's look at 1/3 of the bowhunters. After all these years of being "against" something does ubk have even 1/3 of 1/3 of bowhunters as members? The answer is no. I get tired of hearing how ubk speaks for all bowhunters when in fact they speak for a very minute portion. In fact, I don't think the leadership even speaks for 1/3 of the ubk members on this issue. (yep I "guessed" at the 1/3:) ) but it's still probably more valid than your guess.
Oh and about your insulting Kansas with the "permit" . How many deer hunters do you know who when they kill a deer "permit" it and how many tag it?

[Multidigits]

QUOTE=buckfever Do existing hunters object to this? I'd guess that approximately 2/3 of Ky deer and turkey hunters are against this proposal. I'd bet that private landowners and farmers would object to this b/c people will look for new hunting areas b/c of public land overcrowding and b/c we already have enough trespassing from existing weapons groups).

More lies from the anti-hunters. Remember, there's a poll that the KYDFWR took in late 2002. It proves you wrong. Yes, the Commission believes in the KYDFWR poll, and it was a determining factor in their decision.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/GSP/xbowdata.jpg



You can talk all you want to about how $ was the driving force behind this, but I was there, and the Dept solely offered this as a "social issue". Not a single word was uttered about revenue being the primary reason for the change.

Yeah right, a 24% increase in hunter in the early season won't create commerce??? The KYDFWR is in the Commerce Dept. of State Govn. last I looked.

Learn the rules and play the game according to the rules. :rolleyes:

[Xtreme]

Now post the part of the survey that asked about baiting? :confused:

[Multidigits]

Now post the part of the survey that asked about baiting? :confused:

Baiting is not an issue here now or in the near future. But if you intend to imply that the poll is bogus, you have to convince the Commission that all the employees under them are incompetent and negelect in their duties. That they have made dozens of decisions based on a faulty poll or other faulty data from these same incompetent employees. to be honest with you, you don't want to go there, because it won't go over too good. I'm sure this is going to be one of the reason used for the appeal so i'll let someone from your side post it up. It doesn't show what you think it does anyway, but if you want to try and go that away, it's your choice. :D

[Xtreme]

Baiting is not an issue here now or in the near future. But if you intend to imply that the poll is bogus, you have to convince the Commission that all the employees under them are incompetent and negelect in their duties. That they have made dozens of decisions based on a faulty poll or other faulty data from these same incompetent employees. to be honest with you, you don't want to go there, because it won't go over too good. I'm sure this is going to be one of the reason used for the appeal so i'll let someone from your side post it up. It doesn't show what you think it does anyway, but if you want to try and go that away, it's your choice. :D


As far as I know this will not be a part of the appeal. I just want to know if indeed the survey reflects that on average only 18% of the deer hunters in this state bait deer. The one I saw but do not have yet still said this was basically the numbers.:confused:

Don't blow any smoke up my afterburner, talk to me like I am a sixth grader. Is this true or false.

[Multidigits]

False, I already told you it's broke down in more than one resonse. I'll look for it tomorrow and send it to you. I have it on file somewhere? I still don't see the releavance to the issue, without disputing the poll. And I believe that won't work for you?

[Xtreme]

False, I already told you it's broke down in more than one resonse. I'll look for it tomorrow and send it to you. I have it on file somewhere? I still don't see the releavance to the issue, without disputing the poll. And I believe that won't work for you?

Believe it or not I really don't care if it will work for the appeal. I'm not handling the appeal but will be a part of it for sure. You know that is a given. I just want to see in black and white what the survey said about other issues. The one I got to briefly scan also had coyote hunting as the fastest growing outdoor sport in the state?

See what I mean?

[Multidigits]

I think you got some bad info. It didn't have a question about coyote hunting on it at all.

[hobow]

QUOTE=buckfever Do existing hunters object to this? I'd guess that approximately 2/3 of Ky deer and turkey hunters are against this proposal. I'd bet that private landowners and farmers would object to this b/c people will look for new hunting areas b/c of public land overcrowding and b/c we already have enough trespassing from existing weapons groups).

More lies from the anti-hunters. Remember, there's a poll that the KYDFWR took in late 2002. It proves you wrong. Yes, the Commission believes in the KYDFWR poll, and it was a determining factor in their decision.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/GSP/xbowdata.jpg



You can talk all you want to about how $ was the driving force behind this, but I was there, and the Dept solely offered this as a "social issue". Not a single word was uttered about revenue being the primary reason for the change.

Yeah right, a 24% increase in hunter in the early season won't create commerce??? The KYDFWR is in the Commerce Dept. of State Govn. last I looked.

Learn the rules and play the game according to the rules. :rolleyes:

Since Kentucky does not have weapon specific license, I was wondering how it was determined that it was indeed archery hunters that said they were archery hunters when anwsering the poll. If so that would indicate 44% of Kentucky hunters are archery hunters wouldn't it? Seems high to me.

Just asking.

[Multidigits]

Other questions on the poll indentified the respondents to the questions.

[Xtreme]

I think you got some bad info. It didn't have a question about coyote hunting on it at all.

There is one so I'm told and of course it's....hard to shake loose:rolleyes:

[Multidigits]

No coyote questions--nil, zip, nada. :confused: