Can we legally fall turkey hunt in Kentucky??

[Valley Station]

Corn/bait must be removed from bait site 30 days prior to fall turkey hunting. With corn baiting being a very common practice in Kentucky during deer season,and fall turkey seasons coinciding with deer seasons, can we legally turkey hunt??
Currently, turkey baiting laws are not being enforced! If , they were probably 90% of the fall hunters would be in violation!
Outlaws are shooting them over corn and know that it's almost impossible to enforce!!
What do you think??

[rlb165]

Good question, I just don't think there is a perfect answer.

You could make baiting for turkeys legal, which would be disastrous IMO, or you could make baiting for deer Illegal, which wouldn't be disastrous, but would upset a substantial # of people.

My guess would be that some day before too long, baiting for deer will be banned (CWD), so it'll probably take care of itself, except of course for those that don't follow the law.

[schuyler olt]

Valley,
To paraphrase the regs, it's illegal to hunt over bait or with the aid of bait. You may have seen an earlier post of mine where I raised the hypothetical where my farm's not baited but my neighbor's is, and I shoot a turkey that is travelling to or from that bait site. I think if I was ignorant of the baiting the outcome would likely be different than if I knew about the bait and took advantage of it.
Enforcement-wise, the Department really stepped up its enforcement last spring, citing 84 individuals. That was a huge increase over prior years. Unfortunately, what it shows is that the baiting mentality carries over into spring. I don't have the figures for this fall, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a significant number of citations.
Ultimately, the answer in my mind is that it is legal to fall hunt turkeys PROVIDED you elect not to use bait, or you hunt public land where baiting is illegal. Obviously, I don't bait my lease and since doing the work on the food plots, I don't know why I would.
I do a fair amount of flying for recreation and it's amazing how easily a corn pile can be seen from the air. They stick out like the proverbial sore thumb, even from several thousand feet, especially on a sunny day. With a hand-held GPS, it's child's play to map them. My personal stand on deer baiting is that it's legal, but if someone is illegally baiting turkeys, the penalties need to be drastic, including forfeiture of guns, equipment, rigs and the like. Poaching is poaching, and it is a bigger threat to our resources and our privilege to hunt than anything else.

[Big58cal]

Oh Boy, a great big 84 citations! There are 120 counties in KY and only 84 citations????????? That's less than 1 per county. I'd be willing to bet that during deer season, there were greater than 84 citations issued in 1 county. What's wrong with this picture? I would like to think that turkey hunters are more law abiding and ethical than deer hunters, but I'm not going to go there and besides, pretty much the same people that turkey hunt also deer hunt.

I'm not going to get on the kick of C.O.'s not doing their jobs, and have it kicked back that they don't get any support, their hands are tied, they can only work so many hours, etc. What I would like to throw out is one C.O. in particular that I know will give a citation to a person for not having a tag on a deer while that deer is being dragged out of the woods. According to the reg., the deer is in my immediate possession and does not need to be tagged.

Now, with the knowledge of 84 citations throughout the entire state last spring for baiting turkeys, and the knowledge of a C.O. that will cite for not tagging a deer, when you don't have to tag a deer, what do you think the problem is?

Sorry, but some of this stuff just P****s me off to no end! 84 citations statewide.....Give me a break!

[schuyler olt]

In the prior years, the number was in single digits. It's improvement. And if you bust a thousand of them, it won't stop the problem until we make it hurt. I wish enforcement was better, but the guys in the field are stretched really thin. The ones I know bust their butts, but there's only so many of them. We need more officers, but that takes money and guess what we don't have!

[Valley Station]

Schuyler,
I did notice your hypothetical example on turkey baiting, but, that was not influential on initiating this topic.
It is however, an example of how confusing and unclear the turkey baiting regulations are.
F&W law enforcement has always told us " turkey movement influenced by bait, even on other property, no matter what distance , is considered baiting". If your hunting turkey that are traveling between roost site to neighbors bait site, <u>even unknowingly</u>, is still baiting.
In theory, any non-hunting landowner, by putting bait on his property, can prevent legal turkey hunting by adjoining property owners .
We need to correct this ambiguous regulation.
It's my understanding , that turkey baiting law is being overlooked and not enforced in the fall, due to the "common" practice of
deer baiting.

[ceohunter]

I'm curious. How many turkey hunters hit the woods in the spring and how many deer hunters hit the woods in the fall? 84 may be a small number, but could potentially be a percentage equal or greater than the percentage of deer citations. Don't know the numbers so I don't know the answer to my question.

[schuyler olt]

Don't know the answer either. Valley, I absolutely agree that the reg is ambiguous. As a lawyer, I can tell you from experience that a bad guy can abuse that kind of reg in a heartbeat. Judges do not like to hammer folks if the reg is not clear. Everyone understands "x yards." Many folks don't understand something George Wright has talked about for years, and that is the health danger posed to turkeys by corn piles. Shelled corn frequently has a fungus in it that is really hard on turkeys. You can't tell if the fungus is there with just your eyesight, either. I don't know, but I'd bet that if that fungus is death on turkeys, it probably isn't good for the grouse and quail, either.

[Valley Station]

I have an old farm in Hart county, were most of my immediate neighbors are Ammish. The turkey flock is not doing well there for some reason. They all seem to put out corn piles.
I can't determine if problem is corn fungus or Ammish lead poisoning!

[INKYHUNTER]

I think the law is unfair to the turkey hunter. I don't walk over my neighbors property before I hunt. How do I know if they have put a corn pile out. I know what I would do if I had the authority, however a lot of deer hunters wouldn't be happy.[;)]

[Highbow]

Any good lawyer could destroy the baiting law, Co's have told me they don't have enough power to really do much with you on your own property,so with that said and Mr. Olt you mentioned your food plots, a food plot is nothing other than bait, period. You hunt over it, you hunt a baited area, there is no other way to look at it. I know Dept. employees who hunton or over or near food plots built on the WMAs, there is know difference and that is easy to prove in court. I say quit crying about this small problem and enjoy hunting, the Cos can't do much harm with the problem.

[muzzy125acc]

baiting is going to be coming to an end..

[Multidigits]

"Any good lawyer could destroy the baiting law" - Ths is very true, unless the individual actually shoots the turkey with his head in the corn. There is virtually no way for anyone to prove that the turkey is influenced by the bait, or even headed to the bait. Hell, most turkeys don't even know what their doing half the time, so how can a CO or anyone else. For as baiting or hunting with bait, it sure hasn't affected the population of them anywhere that I hunt. I really don't see this as an issue. IF you want to hunt turkeys, don't bait...otherwise don't worry about it.

[INKYHUNTER]

Oh hell, now I have to have a good lawyer to hunt turkey.[}:)]
I bet that would cost more then my turkey gun.[:D]

[Ky Headhunter]

It may be a "small problem" to some, easily dismissed, but not if you're in VS shoes with neighbors cleaning them out, then the problem might not seem so small.

I have a hard time equating food plots with baiting, CWD & bovine tuberculosis have not been linked to food plots to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. Olt, I've read about the fungus that you mentioned. From what I understand any corn that tests too high for the toxin it produces gets rejected? A guy I used to know from Michigan said that's the corn that usually ends up labeled "DEER BAIT" at every mom & pop store in Michigan? Have no idea if that's really the case.

[RutNBuck]

" one C.O. in particular that I know will give a citation to a person for not having a tag on a deer while that deer is being dragged out of the woods. According to the reg., the deer is in my immediate possession and does not need to be tagged."

UNLESS im mistaken the law reqires that your carcass tag must be filled out before moving the carcass...but says nothing that requires a hunter to place the tag on a deer...ONLY if left unattended...bet MR. Judge would laugh at such a citation


"A wise indian once said,the more you move the less you will see,the less you move the more you will see"

" I live to hunt, but my wife says i may hunting a place to live"

[rlb165]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by KY Headhunter:

It may be a "small problem" to some, easily dismissed, but not if you're in VS shoes with neighbors cleaning them out, then the problem might not seem so small.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Wow, KY Headhunter, what a thoughtful post![^] I've
Dreamed of the day when somebody would stand up for me like that, when I've posted about DEER being poached in my area, and somebody says,"No big deal, its not a problem where <b>I</b> hunt".

Anyway, VS, I see LOTS of turkeys on my place, so baiting isn't a problem!![:p][:D][;)] JUST KIDDIN'!!

Seriously, even though my problem is lack of deer, not turkey, I know how frustrating it can be, and I hate it for you.

I've always put out shell corn late in the season. Since I'm after deer more so than turkey, I've just accepted that I pretty much can't shoot a turkey after I put out corn.

To be honest, this is the first year that turkeys have used the corn much. I scatter the corn on the edge of a food plot I can see from the house, and in years past the turkeys seemed to pretty much ignore the corn in favor of whatever was planted in the foodplot. This year,they're really wearing the corn out though. They feed in it for a while, disappear for a little while, then come back, off and on all day.


Given that, I can see that if I was turkey hunting on an adjoining farm, it would be frustrating.

VS, believe me, I wish I had a suggestion, but at this time I don't.

[Valley Station]

rib165,

Son, we have solved your problem. You can't hunt what you ain't got!
You need to sale your deer rifle and take up turkey huntin'![:)]
P.S.- Don't forget to "clean-up" your corn pile , 30-days prior to opener, or Mr.Warren may pay you a visit.[:I]

[Valley Station]

Multi,
A friend of mine owns a farm over by Dyer in Hardin county. A few years ago, he had a guest hunting who got his gun taken by an officer and a citation for turkey hunting a baited area.
It occured late morning, the boy hadn't shot a turkey and was walking back to house when he was approached by the officer. He talked to the officer, told him that there was no bait on his farm and as normal LE said "pay the fine or tell it to the judge".It was found out thats some kids had scattered some corn out along edge of county road on adjacent farm and LE got word of it.
The hunter got pissed ,spent a bunch of money on a "good lawyer" , took off of work,took it to court and the judge sided with LE. He did get his gun back.
As you know, when interpretation of this regulation is left up to the officer , quite often "innocent hunters lose". We need to correct this.

[schuyler olt]

Valley, I couldn't agree more. Any thoughts on a fix? I'm all ears.
By the way, my food plots consisted of killing off acres of fescue and replacing it with alfalfa, orchard grass, clover and other warm season grasses in pastures and openings in the woods. I don't see that as baiting, although it certainly works to attract small game permanently to the area. You wouldn't believe the increase in rabbits we've seen. It doesn't do much for turkeys after the bugs are killed off until the bugs come back in the spring. But since poults live almost entirely on bugs during their first weeks and months, it's great for rearing birds to maturity. Of course the deer really go after the alfalfa and clover, particularly before the acorns come on.
Another example of "nonbaiting"--feeding corn to cattle. Just watch the turkeys flip those cow pies! That's a bona fide agricultural practice, so it's legal. Just the fact that it's harvest season makes the whole issue tough. A turkey's crop holds about two cups, so a flock of birds can get full for a long time off leavings in a corn or soybean field. Since birds can travel a long way in a day, they may be hitting a corn field miles from where you're hunting. They particularly like high energy foods like corn during weather like we've been having--snow, rain, and cold temperatures. The wild turkey has the highest body temp of any animal, so they need a ton of calories. So they feed almost nonstop during the day, and really hit it before going to the roost. That may be why you're seeing them on cornpiles this year where you haven't in the past.
Anyway, Valley, I'm with you on this one.

[Multidigits]

Valley-I'm sure there has been people fined on the law. Probably a lot of them deserved it. I got the story from Marango a few years back. That when I was told that the Dept. would step up efforts to outlaw baiting. That part of his story turned out to be true.

He assisted on a stake-out off of a hot tip that several individuals planned to bait and whack. Seems there were three of them and all were cited. The officers had video of the bait and of the guys putting it out. But they killed their turkeys away from the bait. To make a long story short, one guy plead guilty and paid his fine. The other two hired an attorney and beat the rap on grounds that the turkeys were not killed off the bait.

[flintman]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Big58cal</i>
<br />Oh Boy, a great big 84 citations! There are 120 counties in KY and only 84 citations????????? That's less than 1 per county. I'd be willing to bet that during deer season, there were greater than 84 citations issued in 1 county. What's wrong with this picture? I would like to think that turkey hunters are more law abiding and ethical than deer hunters, but I'm not going to go there and besides, pretty much the same people that turkey hunt also deer hunt.

I'm not going to get on the kick of C.O.'s not doing their jobs, and have it kicked back that they don't get any support, their hands are tied, they can only work so many hours, etc. What I would like to throw out is one C.O. in particular that I know will give a citation to a person for not having a tag on a deer while that deer is being dragged out of the woods. According to the reg., the deer is in my immediate possession and does not need to be tagged.

Now, with the knowledge of 84 citations throughout the entire state last spring for baiting turkeys, and the knowledge of a C.O. that will cite for not tagging a deer, when you don't have to tag a deer, what do you think the problem is?

Sorry, but some of this stuff just P****s me off to no end! 84 citations statewide.....Give me a break!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">If this is true , I mean about the deer citation, then this should be challenged in the court system. It sounds like there is something missing to this story. With your contacts, you should have no trouble getting through this with no problems.
flintman