"Habitat Buffers for Upland Birds"

[Finn209]

Kentucky Department of Fish & Wildlife Resources
fw.ky.gov

"Habitat Buffers for Upland Birds"
Landowner Registration Now Underway

Press Release Contact: Lee
McClellan
November 4, 2004
(800) 858-1549

Frankfort, KY, (November 4, 2004) -Kentucky farmers may now sign-up for the
Habitat Buffers for Upland Birds (CP-33) program that will pay farmers to
establish buffers around croplands to provide nesting and rearing habitat
for northern bobwhite quail.
The program will provide $125 million in payments through 2007. The goal of
the program is to transform 250,000 acres of low yield cropland into
suitable quail habitat across the United States.
"The Habitat Buffers for Upland Birds program will have a positive
impact on quail populations wherever it is implemented," said John Morgan,
upland game biologist for the Kentucky Department of Fish and Wildlife
Resources (KDFWR). "Leaving borders of wildlife friendly vegetation around
row crops will provide places for quail to nest, feed, roost, escape and
travel, all without impacting a farm's overall production."
The field crop borders in Habitat Buffers for Upland Birds program
will be designed so the least productive parts of a farmer's field are
removed from cropping. These areas are usually shaded or possess poor soil
quality, so their yield is low.
"By placing these areas in borders, the farmer won't have to spend
the time planting or harvesting those areas of low production," Morgan
explained. "Quail benefit from the cover and nearby sources of food."
Signing incentives in the program can reach $100 per acre. Annual
rental payments will be distributed for the length of the contract and
annual payments may include an additional amount as an incentive to maintain
these buffer areas properly.
For more information, contact your local KDFWR private lands
biologist or your local Farm Service Agency office.

[sassafrastea]

I would be very interested in learning more about developing quail habitat. Do ya'll have any good links for research? Adam, our farm has a stretch across a high ridge that is open field which is mown for round bales, for cattle. It is surrounded on 3 sides by woods. How wide of a swatch on the edge of the woods should be left *un-mown* to encourage upland birds? What types of plants should be growing in this buffer zone? Someone else on this forum told me you were a good person to ask about this...I hope you don't mind. Thanks!

[kyfanatic]

Sassafrastea,here are a couple links that you may be interested in =
http://www.kdfwr.state.ky.us/navigation.asp?cid=177&NavPath=C100C152
http://www.kdfwr.state.ky.us/howto.asp?lid=631&NavPath=C100C152C177
http://www.kdfwr.state.ky.us/field.asp

[sassafrastea]

kyfanatic...thank you for the GREAT links! I just went and looked at them...I have some studying to do! Thanks again, that's just what I was looking for!

[Old Oak]

orchard grass/timothy/red top is a good alternative to fescue. as well as gamma grass plantings. All will produce good forage tonage and high protein levels for your cattle producers. 25% of your pastures converted to NWSG will provide you with a good acreage for grazing during the summer months.

According to FSA and NRCS guys here in this county, the quail borders will be 30-120 feet.
3lbs of 3 nwsg and 2lbs of 4 forbs
natural regeneration is also an option
your fields will be eligible if you have cropping history (4 of 6 years 1996-2001). Continuous signup until 9,000 acres are enrolled.
Our farm doesn't have the cropping history but if it did we would get a sign up incentive payment, practice incentive payment, and the rental payment.
10year contract only. That is at least what I wrote done the other day on my stop and chat at the office.

[skin_dog1]

Adam, I love reading your post. Now for a few questions, I know this would be beneficial to deer, would it be beneficial to turkeys? Would hens nest in these areas? Would this be an option for someone that has turkeys in the fall and winter but they dissapear come spring? It seems to me like I read somewhere that turkeys prefer clean field edges, is that correct? If so is this practice gonna be detrimental to your local flock?

[skin_dog1]

One more - I'm not a farmer so I don't have a clue as to how much can be made off of 1 acre of crop land. How much money is the farmer gonna lose even if they get the max payout? My landowner couldn't care less if his place is wildlife friendly. He makes his living off of corn, beans, and wheat - not deer, turkey and quail! I've thought about talking to him about leasing, but there are others that have been hunting the place longer than I. If I could convince himt to enroll, maybe I could pay the difference plus some and we'd both benefit.

[sassafrastea]

Adam, thank you so much for sharing all of your great insight on establishing quail habitat! It all makes perfect sense to me :) I've also been studying the sites kyfanatic sent, I think we might just start with trying to *naturally* feather the field/woods borders and see what we get. When we first moved here 3 years ago, the fields had been let go a bit...but we had quail (not many, but they were out there). There were several fields that had been sown in millet/sunflowers/whatever and then allowed to go with nothing else done to them, and those fields unfortunately developed a terrific crop of Johnson Grass. Since we prefer not to use chemicals, we have been mowing and mowing trying to eradicate the JG. So far, so good, the JG is gradually receding, but I'm sure given a chance it could crop back up in a heartbeat...that JG is tuff stuff! In the meantime, I haven't seen/heard any quail for the last two years. I figured maybe the mowing had something to do with that?

If we do the *feather borders*, would they have to go around the whole farm, or could we just do *sections* here and there? The *field* acreage is about 140 acres and that is surrounded by two hundred acres of woods, and beyond that is other farms with fields and woods. There is alot of cover for deer and turkey (we have lots of both) but obviously there is something missing for the quail.

Given what Old Oak said I don't think we would qualify for the program offered, since I don't think there has been any cropping on this farm for at least ten years prior to 2001, unless tobacco or food plots count as crops?

Sorry, that is a lot of questions...and I'll probably have some more when I go back and re-read everything ya'll wrote:)

Thanks for your input, appreciate it very much

[sassafrastea]

I knew I'd forget to ask this! A friend of mine said that turkey will EAT quail babies???? Is this true????

[Okie]

Maybe they do---but not as a preferred forage. Quail declines all over are blamed on ?? whatever. Skunks, coyotes, hawks and out here fire ants. Habitat is always the key factor--- replace mixed grasslands interspersed with brush with fescue pastures or bermuda grass and the habitat is shot.
Mowing is not going to eradicate your Johnson grass. You might thin it a lot mowing three or four times a year but the seeds in the soil will be viable for several lifetimes. If the soil isn't very erodable better control can be had using a field cultivator in late fall. Kills lots of roots and some late seedlings.
Johnson grass isn't real bad habitat anyway as long as you strip till [ or disc] about a third every year. Your bush hog is most likely the biggest item reducing those quail right now. When you till don't be tempted to seed those strips. What comes up naturally will beat anything you might plant.

[skin_dog1]

QU has done numerous studies on quail predation and have never documented a case of turkeys eating babies or eggs. The number one predator on quail are snakes. They are terrible on the nest. skunks, possums, and ants are a major concern. Armadillos are also bad where they are.

[Okie]

An hour or so west of me there are loads of-armadillos, skunks, fire ants, snakes, hawks ,possums, a few cougars, coyotes and...... quail. Also miles of broken country with Grade A habitat. We'll always have predators but may not always have habitat. Summation of years of research= " main limiting factors are weather and habitat. We can't do a thing about the weather so we must work on habitat". I will add feral and introduced predators have different impacts from native animals.

[Okie]

Another thought--if you don't want to spray herbicides to kill the Johnson grass [ another great introduction by the USDA] rig up a wiper for Round Up type herbicide. Minimal impact physically and chemically both.

Almost anything you do for quail habitat helps deer and turkeys too. The private lands biologists are a great resource and can advise you on controlled burns too.

[sassafrastea]

Thanks, Okie! On the Johnson Grass...from everything I've read, if you want to eradicate it organically, you need to keep it mown back and allow other grasses to take over. Since it spreads by tap root as well as seed, tilling it just gives it a stronger foothold. At least that is what I've read in my research??

Maybe they do---but not as a preferred forage. Quail declines all over are blamed on ?? whatever. Skunks, coyotes, hawks and out here fire ants. Habitat is always the key factor--- replace mixed grasslands interspersed with brush with fescue pastures or bermuda grass and the habitat is shot.
Mowing is not going to eradicate your Johnson grass. You might thin it a lot mowing three or four times a year but the seeds in the soil will be viable for several lifetimes. If the soil isn't very erodable better control can be had using a field cultivator in late fall. Kills lots of roots and some late seedlings.
Johnson grass isn't real bad habitat anyway as long as you strip till [ or disc] about a third every year. Your bush hog is most likely the biggest item reducing those quail right now. When you till don't be tempted to seed those strips. What comes up naturally will beat anything you might plant.

[sassafrastea]

Thanks once again for your great advice, Adam! I have been eyeballing the *borders* and getting a picture in my mind what I want to do. Right now, the borders on the woods are *thicket* like blackberries and brambles and some strange shrub I don't know what it is, it has tiny red berries in the fall...there is A LOT of it, and it is also interspersed thruout the woods. I know we have fescue, but also some orchard grass and bluegrass, clovers, etc. Plus a yellow flowered alfalfa looking thing, I think it is lespedeza (SP)?? We had wildflowers coming up this year...daisies, monarda, joe pye weed, queen anne's lace, foxtail, millet, bull thistle, sweet annie, horse weed, and more....so I am *thinking* if we just allow a natural border to grow on the edge of the woods, that *might* work. I would love nothing more than to renovate the fields with orchard grass & clover...would make some AWESOME hay for my horses!

Most of the farms around here are *cultivated* however, your thoughts on that made me remember the farm next door, just a couple of years ago the fields had been let go and were practically a solid mass of blackberries...then they got mown down so that cover is gone, now, so maybe that was a factor for the quail, too.

I'm definitely going to work on the quail habitat...do you think it would be beneficial to introduce some quail in the beginning? Or just let them come on their own?

Also, how do I get to the archives to read about the cats vs quail?

[sassafrastea]

Who would that be for Henry County?



[QUOTE=adam]I'll look up the PLB in your district and give you his number.Don't hesitate to call.I know most of them and all of them are really nice people.You can also get some assistance for timber stand improvement (i.e. removing junk trees).

[Okie]

Correct. Tilling in spring or summer makes more new plants. But fall field cultivation exposes the rhizomes [ some anyway] that will freeze and die exposed to the air. Mowing will be a long process to get rid of JG since your ground has enough seeds in it to get a solid stand for the next 100 years. Like number one son Adam said--you'll need some bare ground for good quail habitat.
Don't introduce any pen raised birds please !:(

[sassafrastea]

Hmmm, given my background in gardening this makes perfect sense to me, wonder why I didn't think of this myself (to attempt eradication of the JG field in fall) Sometimes I guess I can't see the forest for the trees :-)

What do you mean by *pen-raised* birds? A (hunter) friend of mine was going to release birds here that he buys from a local breeder...so I guess you are saying that is a NO NO?? I am guessing the reasons are being the birds need to be acclimated, etc. which might be hard to accomplish taking them from a breeding pen to the great outdoors...just guessing

I think I have some more studying to do :)


Correct. Tilling in spring or summer makes more new plants. But fall field cultivation exposes the rhizomes [ some anyway] that will freeze and die exposed to the air. Mowing will be a long process to get rid of JG since your ground has enough seeds in it to get a solid stand for the next 100 years. Like number one son Adam said--you'll need some bare ground for good quail habitat.
Don't introduce any pen raised birds please !:(

[Okie]

Birdman has a system he uses to establish breeding pairs but the typical technique of releasing a bunch of pen raised birds has been shown to REDUCE quail numbers instead of increase them. As a "put and take " option it might be alright but since you have at least a few natural birds in the area improving habitat is the way to go IMO.

Pen raised birds haven't developed any resistence to disease or parasites through natural selection and long term survival is rare. I grew up during the state sponsored quail stocking years and there were more quail. Not because of the released birds but because fencerows didn't get a yearly dose of Roundup-- far fewer cattle overgrazing marginal land-- lower rural population-- and a 100 other factors. You can develop habitat and see significant increases in birds. We did on the Crab Orchard farm I recently sold following the practises Adam suggested in his replies.

The major weakness I see in your plan is no chemical control of the JG and encouraging other grasses to outcompete the JG. Grass dense enough to smother JG is too thick for quail. For minimal chemical impact [ since that is your choice] investigate use of a wiper applicator for generic roundup.
You can get contact info for the PLB in your area throgh the KDFW website.

[sassafrastea]

Thanks for your reply...who is Birdman? The place where our friend was going to get the quail is called *Peppers* I did an internet search but couldn't find any info on them. I think they are in Louisville??

With all things considered, I believe you are right in that we should try to improve the habitat first and see what happens with the quail that are already here, after all, when was *man* ever smarter than *mother nature?* :)

Was the farm you sold, in Crab Orchard, KY? Or was that just the name of the farm?

All your points on the JG are well-taken. I am just so against using the chems, I know birds in particular are very susceptible to chem poisoning, and fish, too, and we have bodies of water where any *run-off* could affect the fish. I think we will try no chems at first and just see what happens and go from there.

Thanks, I did look up the biologist...didn't realize the *wildlife biologist* and the *private lands biologist* were one in the same, must have been having a blonde moment :D

[sassafrastea]

Thanks once again for your input! I feel like with the help of ya'll, I'm really getting on track now! While I was researching earlier I found two places right close to me that have quail hunting! Maybe I should go and check them out and get a *visual* on how they have things set up. I think I could learn alot from that.

No, it's not sumac nor fire cherry. I don't know what the heck it is. It is a short shrub and propagates by a shallow tap root. The *berries* are small and kinda purpley red. If that makes sense. I think I'll take a handful to the extension agent and get it ID'd.

Plateau will burn up the JG? Will it also kill the millions of JG seeds that still lie dormant in the ground? Will it kill the fish in our ponds?

What is the LKS paper?? :confused:

[Okie]

The farm address was Crab Orchard ,Ky. Roundup is one of the least toxic chemicals to fish or birds. Run off damage is non existent [ inactive once it hits dirt] and it is often sprayed on pond edges without problems.

Looking over a quail shooting preserve won't give you any info about habitat , just shooting areas.

Birdman is the LKS president that frequents Ky hunting-- heck of a nice guy. [ he even taught Adam the correct form to fall down grouse hunting :D ]
I'll let Adam Clark :D address the Plateau.

[GSP]

What is the LKS paper?? :confused:
The LKS is the League of Kentucky Sportsmen.
There is a forum on this site that explains what the League is and how to join. Hope you join up.

[sassafrastea]

Okie, thanks for the info on Roundup...I guess I thought it was a bit more toxic than it is. Would rather avoid using anything like that but will keep it in mind in case I have no alternatives.

How do you like Oklahoma, do you miss KY? Are you snowed in right now, I heard parts west of us got a bit of snow today, not sure if OK was in the snow or not. Just glad we didn't get any here :)

Ok, so the quail hunting preserves are not a good example of habitat, hmmmm.....that's too bad, it seems like they would try to make it easy for the birds to thrive, in the long run seems like that would be in their best interests, but I'm sure not everyone thinks that way :(

Exactly what kind of fall do you need to learn for grouse hunting...sounds like it might be akin to an *emergency dismount* from a horse...one of those things you need to learn for self-preservation, maybe? :D

Thanks again for all your input, appreciate it very much!

[sassafrastea]

Thanks! I guess if I'd scrolled down on the forum I would have seen that, DUH on my part! I went over there and read some of it but I'm still not quite sure exactly what the purpose of the LKS is? I need to go back and read some more on it but have been busy with T'Giving preparations...got a gang coming tomorrow :) I'll try to get back over there and read some more after Thanksgiving is over.

The LKS is the League of Kentucky Sportsmen.
There is a forum on this site that explains what the League is and how to join. Hope you join up.

[sassafrastea]

What the heck is that??? :eek:

On the Plateau...sounds too dicey for my own useage...wish I lived about 200 years ago when there was no worry about weird invasive plants trying to take over the place. Do I remember you saying earlier that the JG was introduced here by usda...can I ask WHY on EARTH would they do that???

A friend of ours planted/renovated his fields and did the burn thing...I can remember him telling us how terrified he was when he had to burn that field the first time, apparently that type of thing is NOT for the weak of heart, LOL

I am going to contact the biologist and see if he'll come out and give us some tips/ideas...that seems like the first logical step here. I'll be sure to let ya'll know what he says!

Thanks, and have a great Thanksgiving!


I wouldn't spray Plateau near water.You use it in very low concentrations.I wouldn't be afraid of roundup.If you burn it reularly, the fescue will eventually start to die out(but it will green up more on the first couple burns).
Plateau has a residual toxicity to JG and should burn it down for several years after application.
Some shooting preserves do have good habitat, but since most are put-and-take, and don't try to hold wild birds.They aren't like those pine/wiregrass savannahs down south that you see on TV.It doesn't hurt to look, but if you build a pheasant tower I'm gonna be worried.:eek: :D
You may have a tough time getting Plateau these days.Contact you biologist and he may be able to get some for you.

[Okie]

No snow for me--but hit 32 for a low last night. Like Oklahoma ?? Miss Kentucky ? Actually I love Oklahoma -- down to the OSU decals on my truck !:)
I miss some Ky friends and grouse hunting but.... no way I'd live there again. Like the view from my porch [ miles and miles], no sin to hunt or fish, people for the most part are old time friendly. When do think the last time a bank VP volunteered to set up hunting access for anyone ? :cool: Adam can say more how that goes out here.

[sassafrastea]

Ha! We had snow flurries for T'giving...tonight it is raining and in the 30's, I can't think of anything worse...would much rather have the snow. :)

Sounds like you found *home* in OK....this is a good thing! Sounds like a beautiful place, have never been there myself, tho

I've heard ya'll talking about grouse before (on the forum), I didn't really know what they were so asked DH, he said it was a large quail?? Of course he must be right, because he IS the DH :D

It's funny you say the folks in OK are *old time* friendly, I can remember when I first moved to KY (from Wash, DC) I thought everyone was SO friendly, not anything like the folks you'd meet on the street in DC...they wouldn't even LOOK at you...but in KY they would not only LOOK you in the eye, they would actually SMILE and TALK to you...what a concept, huh? It was a pretty good culture shock, but times have changed and it's really not like that anymore. :(

No snow for me--but hit 32 for a low last night. Like Oklahoma ?? Miss Kentucky ? Actually I love Oklahoma -- down to the OSU decals on my truck !:)
I miss some Ky friends and grouse hunting but.... no way I'd live there again. Like the view from my porch [ miles and miles], no sin to hunt or fish, people for the most part are old time friendly. When do think the last time a bank VP volunteered to set up hunting access for anyone ? :cool: Adam can say more how that goes out here.

[GSP]

Sassafras,
Ruffed Grouse is a bird that God put on this Earth to punish hunters with. :D
They are a 1 1/2 pound bird that lives in thickets, fly like the devil and scare you to death when they flush. But the are the KING of the game birds. :)
You find them mostly in the eastern part of the state. A good saying about their habitat is, "if you fall down while grouse hunting and you hit the ground, you are NOT in grouse woods"!

[sassafrastea]

I'm glad I wasn't supposed to get that joke 'cause it went right over my head...WHRRR! :D

Believe me, I won't be *burning* anything until I know what the heck I'm doing!

That's interesting about the JG...it is something I avoid like the plague for my horses. It will turn up in the hay now and then, but, thankfully, they have the good sense to not eat it. It is very toxic to horses.

I hear ya on the Roundup BUT...I will do my best to accomplish all things I need to do here, organically. I haven't always been this way...it is a place where I have arrived after seeing all the negative effects of chems, etc., bad things happening to good folks, over my lifetime so far. And all of these ailments seem to be on the rise, and now they are affecting my friends, and family.

All of our fence rows are weedy, just a couple years ago I was wishing we had the time to weedeat them but now I don't care...I realize they are offering cover to the wildlife that so desperately needs it....like all those bunnies that ate my fall garden :) Oh well, I figure they needed the kale, peas, cauliflower, etc., more than I did, to survive the winter. And I figure the increase in wildlife will only help the overall scheme of things...just looking at the *big picture*

I definitely will check out the LKS...I did look at some of the info over there on the forum and it looks like a good group of folks. I guess I will have to join if I want to read your article on *grouse dancing* :D


Tower shoots are a little game they play at hunting preserves.That was a joke that you weren't supposed to get.
Good burns and disking will do alot to keep the fescue sod from making the place inhospitable to quail.Be safe and use good judgement when burning-burning is fun!
Johnsongrass was introduced as a perennial forage for cattle.It makes good hay and probably good silage.However, it does build up dangerous quantities of cyanide in extreme weather and can be dangerous(all sorghums do).The USDA brought us lots of goodies to make America better.
Roundup isn't DDT-don't be afraid of it.
LKS is a great organization,and it's getting better all of the time.I shall be penning an article about the special dance steps that grouse hunters do.A fall can be a beautiful thing,especially when it happens to other people.Personally I like Birdman's double-front ax kick.

[sassafrastea]

LOL, that is funny...sounds like they like the thickest of thickets then , huh? Doesn't sound anything like quail! Where are they most prevalent in Eastern KY?



Sassafras,
Ruffed Grouse is a bird that God put on this Earth to punish hunters with. :D
They are a 1 1/2 pound bird that lives in thickets, fly like the devil and scare you to death when they flush. But the are the KING of the game birds. :)
You find them mostly in the eastern part of the state. A good saying about their habitat is, "if you fall down while grouse hunting and you hit the ground, you are NOT in grouse woods"!

[sassafrastea]

Wow, grouse hunting sounds a little tuff! :) Do they taste about the same as quail or different?

Your previous mention of logging the woods didn't fall on deaf ears ;) altho you are right, I had never heard of doing that before...doesn't mean I wouldn't consider it, tho. I have already witnessed what the beavers have accomplished here...we had some ducks this year whereas first two years there were none. So I do understand the general concept of logging for improving wildlife habitat. That said, I'm really not sure how much logging would be necessary here, some areas of the woods are thicker than others.

Thanks for sharing all your great knowledge on this...obviously I have a lot to learn :)

[sassafrastea]

Sounds tasty, maybe I'll get the opportunity to try one or the other, or both, someday...sounds like a good goal to work towards! I might have to learn how to bird hunt! :)
That's too bad about the biologists not posting, what a shame :(

[GSP]

sassafras

try this link, it is the sound of a grouse drumming. The males hop up on a log in the spring and beat their wings against the air to make a drumming sound. This usually happens in the spring months, though you'll hear it some year around. You can hear one of these at 100 yards +/-.

http://www.kwic.com/~pagodavista/ruffgrse.wav

[GSP]

Would you consider going as an "observer" some time?

Truth be known Sassafrastea, most grouse hunting trips can be classified as "observation time"! :D

[sassafrastea]

Well, DRAT it all! I have been trying to get this thing to play for the last half hour or so and can't get it to work! I have other music stored here and it is working fine, so I don't know what I'm doing wrong?? I think I need to change the format, but I couldn't figure out how to do that. I'll keep trying!

sassafras

try this link, it is the sound of a grouse drumming. The males hop up on a log in the spring and beat their wings against the air to make a drumming sound. This usually happens in the spring months, though you'll hear it some year around. You can hear one of these at 100 yards +/-.

http://www.kwic.com/~pagodavista/ruffgrse.wav

[sassafrastea]

Adam, I seriously doubt I could look one of those big brown-eyed does in the eye and pull the trigger, but I *think* I might be able to shoot a quail :) Maybe even a turkey :D Plus I'm guessing you are always on the move while bird hunting whereas deer hunting you could possibly freeze to death sitting totally motionless in one of those deer stands :p

One of our friends who has come out a time or two to deer hunt, is really into quail hunting. He even got himself a new bird dog a couple of years ago, much to his wife's chagrin :D Anyway, we have discussed the possibility of him coming out with the dog, to see if dog can flush any quail...he is training the dog and I want to know if there's still any quail here, so it would be a fun day for both of us, and definitely an educational experience for me. I know that he would be thrilled to give me any lessons I want to learn in quail hunting, because he seems obsessed with it, too, LOL. Like you said, I need to *observe* and see if that is something I might want to do. Hubby thinks I'm nuts...but I'd much rather eat *natural* and free-range poultry than something you buy in Krogers that's been injected with hormones and antibiotics! :eek:

Thanks for the book recommendation...I always hit the book store for Christmas shopping and I'll look for it, sounds like a good winter read!

[Okie]

:D :D :D :D S L O W are we ?? :D :D

[GSP]

:D :D :rolleyes:

[sassafrastea]

That is a fabulous site, thanks for sharing it! I got to listen to the grouse drumming! Very COOL! Read the articles on the regeneration of forests, too...makes total sense to me. Not that I want to set fire to my forest anytime soon, but I see the need for management if you want to draw a diversity of wildlife. The more I read, the more I learn, the more questions I have! Seems like I have a lot more studying to do, than I thought I did :) www.ruffedgrousesociety.org (http://www.ruffedgrousesociety.org/)

Look at this!

[sassafrastea]

Hee hee! Seriously now, how many men do you think would use sassafrastea for a call name on a he-man hunting forum? GIGGLE! At least I know you weren't trying to pick me up! ;)

It has taken me all this time to figure out that you are a woman.:eek: :o

[GSP]

Both of you can pucker up:mad: .I just thought I was talking to a city guy.:D
:p

Sassafras, listen to Adam, he knows what he's talking about. Don't overlook creating some pockets of brushpiles in your woods and some pockets of clearcuts. Fire is a good thing when done in the right and safe manner. Get your local Public Land Biologist and/or your local US Forester to stop by your farm. Those guys can head you in the right direction

[Okie]

Well.. there is a rouge and a pooge on here !! sassafrastea isn't that Liberal !!

[sassafrastea]

Don't worry, I'm listening to Adam So far he hasn't said anything that doesn't make sense to me, so I am all ears. :)

We already have lots of natural *brushpiles* in the woods. I really think the main thing we are missing are the grassy borders and maybe some clear cutting in the woods. And then of course there's that darned fescue <groan> The woods have been logged before (not by us but a previous owner) Not sure how long ago that was, tho.

I meant to call the FSA today to get the paperwork on the Quail Habitat Initiative, but I got to working around here and let the time get away from me. I will definitely call them tomorrow to get the paperwork...applications, etc. I'll call the biologist, too!


:p

Sassafras, listen to Adam, he knows what he's talking about. Don't overlook creating some pockets of brushpiles in your woods and some pockets of clearcuts. Fire is a good thing when done in the right and safe manner. Get your local Public Land Biologist and/or your local US Forester to stop by your farm. Those guys can head you in the right direction

[sassafrastea]

I have seen Pooge but haven't seen Rouge aka Rogue post since I've been on here...maybe you guys ribbed him too much and he is pouting :D

[sassafrastea]

Yes, I am already thinking about purchasing native tree saplings, specifically paw paw and was thinking crabapple, too. What is the name of the native crabapple? Probably the same species as the one we had planted in the backyard when we lived in Louisville...deer came right up to the house to steal every crabapple that hit the ground. They also thought the vibernum was *deer candy* :) We have a few persimmons here but maybe could add more. Will have to research the *shrubs* more to see what to get. I've heard that the Div of Forestry offers saplings for *reasonable* prices each year? Seems like I read that somewhere. I already have shootingstar catalog, have had it for a couple of years now but never ordered from them yet. They have some very neat stuff!

Thanks to all the info I've been getting on this forum, I've got a ruff plan in my mind what I want to do. One of those things is to establish an *inner sanctuary* for the deer (and other wildlife). I've already decided where I think the perfect spot for that will be. Also want those *grassy borders*...the shrub thing is what's stumping me. I'll see if I can get the WB out here to help us out.

Thanks for all your great wisdom! :)

[sassafrastea]

Thanks once again, Adam! I checked my Shootingstar catalog today, can you believe they don't offer any crabapples:confused: Saw the vibernum in there, tho...plus several varieties of euonymous including the strawberry bush. Oh, and that plum tree is in there, too. Roses are actually in my planting plans this year, too...heirloom varieties, fence climbers, ramblers, etc.

On this whole farm we have exactly ONE forsythia and ONE lilac, LOL. I don't know what whoever planted them was thinking. :rolleyes: There is also a hedge of something I can't identify...I *think* it might be *spice bush* I am wondering about it's value for wildlife because I've seen several *spice bush* babies popping up on the fence rows, can't decide whether to take them out or let them grow.

Just remembered another thing the deer LOVED at our old place, was the black pussy willow I planted there. They *pruned* it for me religiously, ever spring as it was budding out, before I ever had a chance to go cut some stems for the vase :(

[sassafrastea]

Mountain Laurel? :eek: Something tells me I'm gonna be wrong! :o

[sassafrastea]

On the rest of your post, I really need to positively identify some of the stuff around here. Truthfully it drives me nuts I don't know what some of it is. I wish there was a website that identified native KY weeds and shrubs, maybe you know of one? Or a good book that could identify these things? It would be be really helpful if you could write that article on the *weeds* ;)

[sassafrastea]

DAMN! No kidding! OOOPS! I just knew I was wrong...INSTINCT! :p

So tell me, what is the value of sassafras? Besides the root? Well, at least us humans look for/harvest the root...wildlife might like other parts of it?

Thanks for the suggestions on the books...I'm gonna have fun in the bookstore this year shopping for Christmas presents for ME :)

You shoulda collected seed from those weeds the deer were eating....so you could replant and study them ;) ...were they annual or perennial weeds? Maybe *horseweed*? Yeah, drawings don't help much...pics help alot in identifying weeds/plants/etc, especially if they are in COLOR and show all stages of growth, flowering, fruiting, etc. Some of the weeds mentioned on this forum are actually herbs...like the burnet someone mentioned in the food plot discussion. I would also really like to be ALOT more knowledgeable about our native weeds...and herbs. That's why I want *someone* to research and write the *weed article* :D

[Okie]

Guess that is the best term to describe a road trip with Adam. Can be a shock driving. I have thought we were about to get slammed by an 18 wheeler [ LOOK !!] only to learn he saw a nice stand of some Latin named weed ! :eek: Can assure his disgust is genuine when he finds one not known as is his interest finding new ones native to other states.

[sassafrastea]

Hey Adam, I didn't know you could smoke sassafras, or do you mean chewing on the root as a substitute for tobacco? :confused:

Okie, can relate to your *experience* with Adam, I do the same thing with wildflowers, darn near wrecked my truck last summer when I spotted a small stand of yellow coneflower, which I had never seen growing wild in KY before :cool:

[sassafrastea]

A friend of mine once gave me some Sassafras Tea as a gift (wonder where she got THAT idea?) I thought it was HORRIBLE tasting! :p

yeah, imagine that, yellow coneflowers! Another rare native species which somehow found a new foothold! :D I was worried about them getting wiped out by a mower (roadside mowing) but they found a little spot high up on a steep bank by the road, so I *think* they are safe there! :) :) :)

[sassafrastea]

I believe it. I have seen it with my own eyes. :(

[Sialia]

Sassafrastea,

I'm guessing the unknown shrub on your property is bush honeysuckle (Lonicera tartarica). The leaves are still hanging on this shrub and have turned a pale green to yellow. The leaves are arranged opposite each other on the stems, rather than alternate. It is non-native and extremely invasive. Some is probably okay. If left unchecked, it will outcompete all other shrubs and tree saplings in your woodlot understory. The consequences are the elimination of plant diversity and the prohibition of any natural tree regeneration in the event of a timber harvest. You can see this shrub's competitiveness near Frankfort while driving on I-64. Look on the south side of the highway in the forested hillsides. This shrub is also prevalent along I-275 around Cincinatti.

"Right now, the borders on the woods are *thicket* like blackberries and brambles and some strange shrub I don't know what it is, it has tiny red berries in the fall...there is A LOT of it, and it is also interspersed thruout the woods."

[sassafrastea]

Sialia, thanks for your thoughts on my mystery shrub! It is DEFINITELY NOT bush honeysuckle, I know what that stuff is! This plant is quite a bit smaller than bush honeysuckle, but it has a *brushy* habit and it is EVERYWHERE, it propagates by a shallow tap root. I was actually out looking at all the borders and places where I want to add some things, today. I'm going to take some pics here as soon as the weather gets just a tad warmer, and I'll take a pic of the mystery *shrub* and post it here, maybe someone can identify it. I have never seen it before we moved out here.

[Okie]

Take a look at photos of the kin to autumn olives, cardinal shrubs. They have a shallow spreading root system--and the very devil to get rid of,

[sassafrastea]

Damn, don't scare me like that! :eek: I looked up Autumn olives, it's definitely not that, I couldn't find a piccy of *cardinal shrubs*. Need to make a trip to the Extension office with a sample! It's really driving me nuts that I don't know what this stuff is! :mad:



Take a look at photos of the kin to autumn olives, cardinal shrubs. They have a shallow spreading root system--and the very devil to get rid of,